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So who here is enjoying this?


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Anyway, this is one of the rare games where the developers actually interact with the players on a daily basis. We should all appreciate that, and I think we do. This can only be a good thing for the future of the franchise.

We do, you do, and it is :D

It's rather frustrating when we are accused of not listening, belittling dissent, squashing criticism, etc. Never have done it, never will do it. However, we do ignore, belittle, and squash counter productive ranting. If someone can't tell the difference, they shouldn't be here. This is a place for grownups. Or at least close facsimiles to grownups :)

The reason I am here is not to do PR for the game but to understand how people are playing, what things we've done right, what things we could do better, and most importantly how to strike balances between the often completely contradictory wants of our customers. Without the interaction with you guys, and your interaction with us, we'd have half the game we have and it wouldn't get better.

If I couldn't get that sort of stuff from you I can think of a lot of other things I could do with the thousands of hours I'd save by not reading and engaging with you guys. Sleep is just one thing I can think of at the moment ;)

Steve

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Back for a few jumbled together responses :D

But that doesn't change the fact that CMBB sold a ton less than CMBO. And it wasn't because of a lack of marketing, the demo, or any of the other conspiracy theories spun by ill informed East Front wargaming zealots. The fact is it was a sequel (they always sell less) and it didn't have Americans in it. Argue until your faces are blue, but the truth is this matters.

You are exactly right. CMBB is 1st or 2nd on my list of all-time favorite games. The amount of work you guys put into that must have been enormous. I am sorry you got so little back for all that. No good deed goes unpunished.

CMBB, however, is the CMx1 game with the most fanatical following (hence the many conspiracy theories). Many Western Front gamers are more casual about wargaming, which is about the opposite when it comes to the Eastern Front. Therefore, as the years dragged on the number of people playing CMBB compared to CMBO and CMAK is way out of proportion to the sales. I would say there is likely more CMBB players still chugging away than either CMBO or CMAK, and probably more CMAK than CMBO.

If you guys had rented CMBB at 50 cents an hour, I'll bet you would have received far better compensation for your efforts.

As obsolete as CMBO looks now, it was revolutionary in 1999. It was a game that could convince a player that he was employing real tactics that would have worked on the 1944 battlefield. Most importantly, it wasn't abstract, like most war games. You could see the soldiers racing across the battlefield, through the thick of tracer and detonations.

I don't think it is possible for CMBN to be a revolution in the same sense CMBO was. However, I do think the current UI makes it particularly difficult for new players to achieve competence and have fun. There is a whole new generation of players who could be attracted to the genre, and the CMBN/CMSF engine is the best of the breed. Except for the UI.

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The only thing I find disappointing about the game is it's limited scope. Im really disappointed that there is no SS or FJ or Luftwaffe field divisions or whatever else fought against the Americans in Normandy. CMBO had the entire late war in the West. That's a big game to play with. I sorta get sick of the hedgerow stuff, and I miss not being able to design /or play some of the more interesting battles in Normandy. And it could be years before the Commonwealth Module. Please spare me the lecture about mods filling in the gaps.

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Honestly I don't get the UI is to difficult argument.

I played CMBO/BB/AK almost daily for over a decade,downloaded the CMBN demo when it came out(never played CMSF),purchased the game day of it's release(was fortunate enough to get one of the tin boxes,made my day that did)and have adjusted to the UI no problems.Once I realised it wasn't CMx1 I was away.

I've now played through every scenario and have started on the campaigns with one PBEM done and another under way.

I lost the PBEM and a few of the scenarios,scratched some wins and got a few comfortably.Have found I need to be scrupulously thorough and to keep moving but not rush it.With all these things working against each other,it's kinda like juggling.

Doing this in the real world would be seriously intense.The stress would be immense.

Hell I don't even notice the UI anymore.

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Also, I'd like to remind some of you who are afraid of Realtime that there is a Pause button. So, it's not really a wild click-fest, at least in single player, since you can literally pause multiple times per second. You have all the time in the world to micromanage 'til your heart's content. I rarely play in WEGO mode because I feel like I lose control every minute. Since the action in game time would not include pauses, it's like you get one microsecond of control for every minute of action. Just my opinion.

The problem of WEGO vs. pausable RT is not a issue of control, but of feedback (at least in bigger scenarios). If I could rewind time in RT to see what had been going on here and there, I would never play WEGO again.

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I'm in the 'not enjoying it' group. A few reasons...

1. I don't have the time to do all the extra micro-managing that these troops and vehicles seem to require, just to get from A to B and start shooting, let alone all the other carp.

2. Even the small quick battles are too big and have too many units, for my liking.

3. Some PBEM game turns are very big files, and with a regular email opponent of mine in a backwoods area with a slow connection, they basically aren't an option for us, so we're sticking with CM1 until our Government rolls out cable broadband to his backwood.

The scenery sure looks nice, but the sight of all those AFVs and trucks bouncing on their soft suspensions makes me feel like all the vehicles are French Citroens in disguise.

However, my main problem is that the game demands too much of my time, and I have a lot of work to do, a dozen other hobbies and interests that also take up my time very enjoyably, and I'm afraid that CM1, despite its over-familiarity and drawbacks, uses up just the right amount of spare time that I have available.

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It's kind of reassuring to read that somebody else is flummoxed by the amount of weapons that share the same sound. I was beginning to think I was the only one who cared!

Yes, I'm enjoying this game immensely. As much as the "you'll never forget your first girl/CMBO" comparison makes me profoundly uncomfortable, it rings true. CMBO blew my socks off, and the CMBN experience doesn't have the same wowee! factor.

That said, I find CMBN to be amazingly addictive. It's got that Wide World of Sports thing going...the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat. There are a hundred stories in almost every turn. It's dramatic, it feels stimulative, it looks good.

Artillery and mortars too powerful? As much as I curse when that barrage hits me, or fails to hit him, the radio operator in me nods in approval.

Great stuff. Looking forward to more.

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For those not in a drug culture

"Chasing the dragon" (a slang phrase of Cantonese origin from Hong Kong, Traditional Chinese: 追龍, Simplified Chinese: 追龙, Cantonese Jyutping: zeoi1 lung4, pinyin: zhuī lóng) refers to inhaling the vapor from heated morphine, heroin or opium that has been placed on a piece of foil. The 'chasing' occurs as the user gingerly keeps the liquid moving in order to keep it from coalescing into a single, unmanageable mass.[1] Another more metaphorical use of the term "chasing the dragon" refers to the elusive pursuit of the ultimate high in the usage of some particular drug.
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Many Western Front gamers are more casual about wargaming, which is about the opposite when it comes to the Eastern Front. Therefore, as the years dragged on the number of people playing CMBB compared to CMBO and CMAK is way out of proportion to the sales. I would say there is likely more CMBB players still chugging away than either CMBO or CMAK, and probably more CMAK than CMBO.

I am always interested in this kind of detail because I like to know how people form such opinions. In WeBoB CMAK is much much more heavily played than CMBB, and CMBO is played hardly at all. But then I am using facts here.

As for those who play solo I cannot see anyway of establishing what the figures are so I expect BF take a percentage of sales - which might be seen as slightly finger in the air. Or perhaps there is a basis on how many download the patches ?

I have never actually seen a formal survey through the Forum on how people actually play the game though I see in this thread BF have suggested a player start a thread on one angle.

I have a theory that though BF do great games and do listen to the forum etc., that they do miss opportunities to generate extra "zap" to the gaming commmunity. So what is "zap"? Well lets look at a few areas:

Beautiful Maps

There are many many people who love to design miniature worlds, even if they actually rarely play. And they like to have their work appreciated by people playing on their maps.

Did BF launch an annual Map of the Year contest? Would it have been difficult to organise? Well No and No. I suspect given the garçon de fanatique base then it would have been as arduous as BFs involvement in the Rumblings of War series.

Scenarios of the Year

Similar idea. Different categories for the map size plus an overall winner. Rotate one year CMAK one year CMBB.

Note that beautiful maps is so not the same as great scenarios though one could imagine some serious testing and cooperation as map builders and force designers work together,

PBEMHelper

Made playing the game hugely quicker in Trusted mode so a 60 game monster became a one month game. Plus you could play all the game films with a 5 second gap in between.

Regardless of the competitive playing side the fact that scenario testing time could be reduced by 2/3rds would have been a boon to many people. I am not suggesting that BF needed to endorse it as it is third party software but apart from a few most people were in complete ignorance of it. Surely any utility that increases the functionality of playing should at least get a mention, subject to caveats,

GaJ has just written a program to make playing easier for CMx2 PBEMer's. SO CMSF has been out around 4 years and CMBN arrives and then a player writes it for the community. Somehow it seems that BF actually should have thought about this side of the game - you know like write us a program to do this and get a freebie CMSF or CMBN.

Find an Opponent

This is a flagship game and not to have an Opponent Finder forum for CMBN together with the game does seem peculiarly unfriendly and may be off-putting to those new to BF games who fail to scroll to the bottom of the page. I cannot see you losing sales by showing there is an active community. And I would also do a sticky as to the clubs where it is played at the head of the find an opponent.

Video

On YouTube there is a 160 minute playthrough of CMBN. I had played a couple of hundred turns when I watched it but it sure got the concepts over well. If that had been available Day 1 perhaps a lot of confusion for those coming from CMx1 would have been killed at birth. And perhaps it would be best done by an amateur who was not familiar overly with the game so he would see it through the eyes of a noobie.

Training Games

I have said it previously but I think the learning experience of moving etc could have been improved by some less obvious methods. Seeing how fast you could drive vehicles around a course could have been fun and lead to lots of boasting and experimentation amongst the players on the forum. A mini game with a very small learning curve - and lots of fun.

Making the game a pleasure to play, or encouraging the community need not be too expensive or time consuming for BF so perhaps some thought, or get the betas opinions, on the zap factor.

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...I would have started C and F at Veteran rather than Warrior....

I don't think it'll make any difference to the outcome. The info you get from the 'not always generic' icons is available in Warrior if you click 'em, and faster buddy aid is hardly significant wrt outcomes. Slightly faster arty might help. but it seems to work for the enemy too, so you just end up having to push harder to keep out from under their mortars... Calling them "Skill Levels" is, I feel, a misnomer once you get past Basic Training; having info on weapons and posture of the enemy is a big help, and very useful to learn what effect you're having on the enemy.

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I love it, warts and all. I'm sure everybody will have a list of things they'd like to see added, changed or fixed. I know of no other game developer that engages as directly with their players.

People have been discussing real-time versus WEGO. I'm 100% WEGO. I enjoy being able to replay the minute of action several times - from different angles, from the viewpoint of different units. I'd hate to miss seeing all the cool things that happen. If I were forced to use real-time then I'd be forced to set my camera view so high most of the time (when not paused) for situational awareness, that I'd miss seeing all the small dramas played out.

Some might argue that WEGO gives us far more information than a real commander would ever have, but a similar criticism could be leveled at Real-time with it's ability to completely chanage a units orders from second to second. I enjoy handing over control to the AI for that minute.

I like forward to further patches making the game better each time, as well as the planned modules (really looking forward to the first one)

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I have been playing CM since CMBO, the first time I played it

felt like playing with plastic soldiers when I was a kid, except

with rules...

The game really makes me think about how to plan an attack that

doesnt kill to many of my men, I have found the AI really challenging which for me is a good thing..

I still play WEGO, I think it is essential, I like to watch the

dramatic moments like when your Bazooka or Panzerfaust team take

out a tank or when your mortar or artlillery stike hits right on

target and causes mayhem among the enemy infantry, what makes

this game special is it simulates what I imagine to be the chaos

of war and that's why I am still playing it it :)

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Oh, to answer the OP's question: I am enjoying this. :)

The biggest difference to me is the visceral hit when my men die. In CMx1, a loss was just a drop in efficiency or ability to a squad. In CMx2, that man died. If he's wounded, I'll have to go back and take care of him (or live with the guilt). That's it at the most basic level: I empathize with my pixeltruppen. The rest of it (all the other improvements) are also good. :)

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In the orders phase, I only occasionally give targeting orders as most of the time the AI does a better job of controlling fire. I haven't found it especially difficult to keep my units under command as long as I don't forget to move my HQs up. I have yet to see a whole lot of difference in how units perform when in or out of command. I take it on faith that there is a difference, I just haven't observed it yet.

Michael

I'm a WEGO man myself, and this I find interesting. If you only let the AI mostly control fire, how do you go about suppressing the enemy? Maybe this is where Im going wrong? Giving my position away..

I've seen quite a big difference in and out of C&C, especially where artillery fire is concerned. Also, I'm not sure if this is the case, but troops recover quicker when under c&c than without.

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Yeah; I'm lovin' it. Of course, nothing will ever replace that first time I fired up Chance Encounter in the CMBO demo. As Michael alluded, nothing will ever replace your first time, no matter how clumsy and awkward it was.

For me, CMx2 is a logical evolution of the CM franchise. It's true that playing CMx2 can be harder and more confusing than the original, but for me, this as a good thing. I enjoy the increased fidelity of the engine and I like the fact that, in my opinion, CMx2 paints a more realistic picture of the challenges and confusion of tactical combat.

I currently still play almost exclusively WEGO, but this is primarily due to the lack of any kind of replay feature in RT. Like may other players, I really enjoy the cinematic aspect of CM, and I like to review the action from multiple perspectives, for the entertainment value.

But I would LOVE to be able to take on the challenge of playing a scenario end-to-end in RT, NO pausing, and then "rewind" and catch all the cool moments I missed while frantically trying to keep my tactical plan together. This would be the "next step" for CM for me. I know the save file would be huge, but storage is cheap these days. External TB hard drives are less than a Franklin, so the prospect of a save game file of several hundred MB, or even over a GB, doesn't bother me.

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i think it's a great game, but so far i haven't experienced truly satisfying battles. i mostly play PBEM, so i haven't played that many battles yet -- so perhaps i have just had bad luck with scenarios.

i like to think & play big in wargames. this is surprisingly hard to do in CMBN. some of it is because of the bocage (well done BFC & scenario designers for achieving the claustrophobic feel!), but much of it is also because of the game engine itself. the game rewards & requires micromanagement, units are able to react & move very fast and some game events are quite random. sometimes it's great, sometimes it makes playing feel like work (not bad in itself, but the results often seem very dimishing).

all that said, it's a great game and i'm hoping that the different terrain in some of the scenarios of the coming module will change the way the game plays.

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I am enjoying it.

There are things I like better in CMBB. Some of those are because this is another engine, and I need to adapt. Some of those are because I feel the game has taken a step back, due to the choices made. I can understand those choices, and the game as a whole might get bettrer from them, but at individual points they are sometimes annoying.

Details:

I enjoyed QB against humans in pbem. (Against the AI it wasn't worth my time - buched up charges along single paths....) Random maps were good enough, as long as you did not go for towns. I am not convinced the current maps are better. My experience is so-so thus far (I am now plaing an engagement QB, which has a river in the middle, with the objectives on a bridge across the river. Equal forces, both need to cross the river to win... Not a realistic starting point). The AI on the other hand is much improved (if the designer made a good plan, and didn't forget to link it the right way).

Love the individual soldiers and the smaller "squares" on the map. But I liked the larger maps and the bigger units in CMBB. You had a longer time to manouvre to contact, and the odd occurances evened out a bit. No way you can do that now, even a 2x2 map with a medium force brings my (fairly up to date) computer down, and the files top 25 MB.

I am a bit disgruntled about some of the changes in lethality and cover, compared to CMBB. Someone said that you should approach this as a new game - and that is ok. But it is also supposed to be a simulation "as-good-as-possible". And having houses being good cover against arty (for exampla) in CMBB, and not so good in CMBN grates a bit. If both are supposed to simulate reality, one of them has to be off......

Love the relative spotting. Hate the way your units seem to forget what they spotted a moment ago. In Hussar your tank sees a destroyed german tank - till he looks the other way, and the contact turns immediatly back into a ? Come on, it was a burning Panther at 30 feet, 3 seconds ago, sure you can remember that, and not turn it in an unknown enemy contact?

Love the wysiwyg cover system, but there are some oddities. Same scenario, got a scout car looking down the road (covered arc) at a corner 40 meters away. A Panther sneaks around that corner, and shoots the scout car before he notices the 50 ton, 3 meter high clunking monster. Really? Have two Stuarts watching a road. A Panther is coming down that road. It is not seen by the Stuarts. Panther shoots the first Stuart. A few turns go by. Panther is seen by the second Stuart. Second Stuart opens up, Panther sees it only after the fifth hit (with predictable results). Plain, straight road, about 100 meters distance....

Same goes for the individual lethalety. I had 9 (German) squads in ambushes in another game. Pulled of the ambushes ok (a very nice improvement, in CMBB you might as well not fall back - standing to the last man gave usually a better result). My casualties were 10 men - unfortunatly 7 of them were Schreck toting individuals (taking out 7/9 of my AT capability, and they had not fired a shot yet).

Love the new C2, though it takes a bit of micromanaging. Way better than enything in CMBB. Cant wait to fight on the east front - without radio's.

Not complaining about the snipers buddy that opens up with his MG at 200 meters, or the loader of the Schreck that starts pinging the enemy tank with his rifle at 300 meters - I expect those to be fixed in this patch.

Do I enjoy the game - yes, but there are a few annoying caveats. Do I enjoy it more than CMBB - mostly, though I miss some things you could do with CMBB. Do I go back to CMBB - no way. Will I be playing CMBN - absoluut, with all modules, till the east front game appears.

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the key is that I should know if someone is under command or not without having to select the unit.

Perhaps the unit icons can be made to switch around and show different info at a keystroke. First keystroke is unit type, second is command status, third is formation ID, then back to unit type.

Formation ID and command status could be the same one, ID number would be formation, shading would be if in command or not.

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I'm loving it.Although the patch Fubar'ed everything and I had to do a complete Uninstall and reinstall.Lost all my Mods and all my PBEM games.I have fixed the problem and updated,but now I need to spend the next day or two getting everything set back how I like it with the Mods and restart all my PBEM games.:mad: I love everything about the game though.PBEM is by far the most fun I have ever had in any game I have ever played.I never played a PBEM game before,and PBEM QB is the most fun I have had in years.:D

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Having bought CMAK, CMBB and CMBN all within a month or so of each other, I'm currently playing PBEM games with all 3 and really enjoy them.

There's aspects of CMAK/CMBB which I prefer over CMBN and vice versa.

I think right now though, I'll make my own little scenarios in CMBN and see if I can get this C&C business under control.

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The problem of WEGO vs. pausable RT is not a issue of control, but of feedback (at least in bigger scenarios). If I could rewind time in RT to see what had been going on here and there, I would never play WEGO again.

I play RT partly because I enjoy all the surprises inherent in not knowing exactly what is going on.

Questions about what exactly happen often remain.

For example, the AI I had set up somehow surprised me from the flank. A whole panzergrenadier company (I assumed since I'd set them up) was coming right up the road to my hastily re-deploying paratroopers. The trooper platoons were caught in the open in the middle of moving away from the pg company. It looked like the troopers were just going to get mowed down if they stayed where they were or ran for it, so I put them all on assault and sent them head-on into the pgs. When I got back to check on them, one squad was wiped out almost completely and the rest were okay. There was no sign of the PGs. or at least none that I could see from a quick 9 second look-see. I still don't know what happened there.

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For those few who bought CMAK and still enjoy it, just remember that you're in the minority. Maybe this time you'll be in the majority and lose interest after time, just like most people who bought CMBO. It's just how it goes.

Steve

Oh boy. CMAK was my favorite of the old CMs. I got CMSF and added marines and stopped there since I mostly played red on red.

I expect I'll get all the CMBN follow-ons since WWII is pretty much a red-on-red event.

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I play RT partly because I enjoy all the surprises inherent in not knowing exactly what is going on.

Questions about what exactly happen often remain.

I'm glad you like that, as we do too. But it doesn't sit well with some player types. We even found this in CMx1, though the "surprise" factor was far lower due to the Absolute Spotting system of that game series. The fact that it's more realistic to not know what's going on doesn't sway such players. Yet when I suggest they play with the lower settings, which approximate Absolute Spotting, I get the usual "I'm not a beginner, so don't insult me by suggesting I play the kid level". Well... as the old saying goes, if the shoe fits...

:)

Steve

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