Targetting from waypoints.

[James Crowley]

Back in CMx1 days there were lots of requests for the ability to get LOS from any point on the map. These were always refused, quite rightly IMO, on the basis that if you wanted to get LoS from a given point, you had to have a unit on that point.

Am I alone in thinking that the ability to target from waypoints seems to be a move in the polar opposite direction?

To my mind, it is an extremely gamey move, especially at Iron and Elite levels, where it is now possible to put a waypoint at or near known or suspected enemy locations, to see what LoS they have. This in addition to selecting the perfect spots to move your own units to.

I think the option to do so should not be available at the higher skill levels; possibly not available at all.

[etagimbo]

Back in CMx1 days there were lots of requests for the ability to get LOS from any point on the map. These were always refused, quite rightly IMO, on the basis that if you wanted to get LoS from a given point, you had to have a unit on that point.

Am I alone in thinking that the ability to target from waypoints seems to be a move in the polar opposite direction?

To my mind, it is an extremely gamey move, especially at Iron and Elite levels, where it is now possible to put a waypoint at or near known or suspected enemy locations, to see what LoS they have. This in addition to selecting the perfect spots to move your own units to.

I think the option to do so should not be available at the higher skill levels; possibly not available at all.

You still cannot target or check LOS from a waypoint, only the range from the selected waypoint is displayed, the line still originates from the current position of the unit or am I missing something? At least I did not succeed to do so, which complies with the patch description:

"When attaching targeting orders to a waypoint, the range display is calculated from the waypoint, not the unit's current location."

[YankeeDog]

No, you can target and check LOS from a Waypoint. For whatever reason, when you're plotting the order, the targeting line still comes from the unit's current location.

While I see the op's point with regard to using this function to check LOS, I don't see how this can be changed; issuing target orders from waypoints is pretty central to the way the CMx2 works.

[stikkypixie]

You still cannot target or check LOS from a waypoint, only the range from the selected waypoint is displayed, the line still originates from the current position of the unit or am I missing something? At least I did not succeed to do so, which complies with the patch description:

"When attaching targeting orders to a waypoint, the range display is calculated from the waypoint, not the unit's current location."

The line starts from the unit, but is actually showing the LOS from that waypoint.

It would be a bad idea to remove this feature, because

a) you won't be able to stack fire orders

it is not such big deal, as you can only get a rough idea of the LOS in practical terms (unless you want to scan every pixel on the map with the target tool)

additionally the target tool only tells if LOS is possible from one action point to another action point, but depending on the situation the ACTUAL LOS a unit has can vary

[etagimbo]

No, you can target and check LOS from a Waypoint. For whatever reason, when you're plotting the order, the targeting line still comes from the unit's current location.

Checked it, very interesting. Very counterintuitive.

[James Crowley]

No, you can target and check LOS from a Waypoint. For whatever reason, when you're plotting the order, the targeting line still comes from the unit's current location.

I believe the patch changes this so that the line emanates from the selected waypoint now.

It would be a bad idea to remove this feature, because

a) you won't be able to stack fire orders

it is not such big deal, as you can only get a rough idea of the LOS in practical terms (unless you want to scan every pixel on the map with the target tool)

additionally the target tool only tells if LOS is possible from one action point to another action point, but depending on the situation the ACTUAL LOS a unit has can vary

In regard to a) you are correct but surely if your unit, in moving to that point, spots an enemy unit -especially if you use target arcs - it will fire anyway.

In regard to again, true, but still gives the player a lot more information than his real-life counterpart would have and seems to me to be against the spirit of limited information inherent in Iron and Elite levels in particular.

[Wego McPbem]

One thing to bear in mind is that this function can be unreliable, it doesn't take into account height for one thing. I've had quite a few occasions where relying on it has hurt more than helped.

edit: beaten by stikkypixie

[dieseltaylor]

However James is right it does have extreme gamey potential AND is the reverse of the reasoning in CMx1. I think I mentioned in CMx1 the gaminess of the automatic laser rangefinder - which now apparently has an independent working function. Fotunately range break points are not relevant with the weapons.

Stikkypixie - reason a] is that the total good point?

As it stands then I can plot my move all over the board and check where I will get views. I do get the feeling that BF in trying to cater for RT , solo players, and for PBEM may have introduced compromises that have strange outcomes.

So can someone help me with why you should be able to astrally project your body to check viewpoints? And does it have different effects in the different play modes?

[etagimbo]

I believe the patch changes this so that the line emanates from the selected waypoint now.

Not on my machine.

In regard to again, true, but still gives the player a lot more information than his real-life counterpart would have and seems to me to be against the spirit of limited information inherent in Iron and Elite levels in particular.

I think in real life you also have a lot of information to get an idea what you can see from what position. You can tell so from maps, reconnaissance (arial, patrols, etc.) or from spacial imagination (correct term?) - which works much better in real life than on the computer map. Or the area might even have been occupied before.

[Wego McPbem]

One downside to taking this out is that you wouldn't be able to attach target commands to individual waypoints anymore. Don't think I'd like to lose that ability.

[Broadsword56]

This feature isn't as gamey as it might seem, because IMHO it counterbalances the fact that the game map makes it hard to see elevations and terrain variations. Remember, we're having to be the "brains" of even the squad and team leaders in the game. A real soldier on the ground would have much better sense what he can see and where the cover is than we have from our perch in the sky above him. If we didn't have the added tool of checking LOS from waypoints, we'd more often move our pixeltruppen into exposed places that real soldiers would know to avoid.

[womble]

I believe the patch changes this so that the line emanates from the selected waypoint now.

As I read it, it only changes that the range is calculated from the waypoint you're using, whereas before, all ranges were shown as being that from the current location of the unit. Emanating from the waypoint would be good, but not just yet, I think.

[PhantomApple]

I actually didn't like CMx2 until this was added in SF.

[stikkypixie]

I believe the patch changes this so that the line emanates from the selected waypoint now.

In regard to a) you are correct but surely if your unit, in moving to that point, spots an enemy unit -especially if you use target arcs - it will fire anyway.

In regard to again, true, but still gives the player a lot more information than his real-life counterpart would have and seems to me to be against the spirit of limited information inherent in Iron and Elite levels in particular.

In regards to

a) I use it mostly for suppressive area fire. It also allows you to see if you are hull-down with respect to a location. If you are playing WEGO like me, this is important because adjustments are not possible for a whole minute and it doesn't seem realistic either.

No real life experience, but I assume that an order such "try to get a good view of that house" is quite common. Again playing WEGO, this would be extremely cumbersome.

[Holien]

I do get the feeling that BF in trying to cater for RT , solo players, and for PBEM may have introduced compromises that have strange outcomes.

I think quite a few things have been done to meet larger markets.

Fire on the move for example.

It is difficult to design something that will keep all the various game players happy and I think we will have to learn to accept these design choices as there is no other choice to play until someone comes along and designs it....

I pointed this new use out to James so nice to see he is questioning if it is a good thing. I did not know of the feature until he explained it and then I checked it out and it does help in getting a better view on what can see a certain spot...