Why relative spotting is so cool

[sburke]

In a recent battle I was able to ambush two enemy tanks. Both had been forced to stay buttoned up and as my vehicle crested a ridge it was able to take both under fire before either spotted it. Tactically it now becomes so much more important to reduce your opponents power of observation. In CMx1 both enemy vehicles would have spotted mine as soon as one lone enemy infantry unit did and the ambush would likely not have been successful. Even after taking out the first tank, the second had no clue what had just happened and it's first realization came when a round went through it's engine block.

It was my infantry and (mostly) artillery that had kept one buttoned up. The other had lost a crew member earlier and was functioning at a more limited level of awareness. Combined arms tactics really work. If I had needed any proof about the changes relative spotting brings and the vast improvement in CMx2, I was given a glaring demonstration. Damn I love this game.

I have been playing CMSF for some time, but due to the difference in communication technology and C2 in the modern era it was never driven home in quite the same way.

[sburke]

And just to add fuel to the fire, I just had an MG team take out a TC in Panzer's Marsch!, The Sherman then stumbled blindly into a Panther. Note the TC when initially fired upon went for the .50 seriously and fatally exposing himself..no not that way!

[Battlefront.com]

It's fun to see people notice this. Relative Spotting is a gift that keeps on giving. Er, or taking away, depending on which side of the equation you happen to be on for a given engagement

It's also kinda frustrating to see people completely miss it. To me it's like someone going to 5 star restaurant, ordering the best dishes on offer, and then saying there's really no difference between that meal and going to Olive Garden. My question would be, "did you actually eat the food, or just look at it?".

Steve

[LemuelG]

It really impressed me when I picked up the demo. The way they would tell units that just arrived in the line where they spotted an enemy, and the chinese-whispers which would lead to some units suspecting enemies in places you knew to be clear, just 'cause they heard about it earlier and were never informed of the enemy's destruction; at first it confused me, when the realization of what had happened dawned on me I was deeply impressed.

Credit where it is due, this is a brilliant spotting system.

[slysniper]

I am also very impressed with it, the complete feel of the game is because of it.

I just wish that the mechanics of it were a little clearer as to how it works.

The one thing I see is that units that are moving should always be much easier to spot, more so than any other situation. Units not moving in concealed terrain should of course be the hardest to spot. I will take it for granted these things have been designed into the programming for the game. but with the playing of the game so far, these two aspects do not seem to be as big of factors as I would think they should be in sighting enemy units.

There seems to be plenty of times that the moving unit seems to be the one spotting the unit that is non moving and in concealment first and getting a first shot advantage.

I still have not done testing on this, but other than that, the concept is really great. It really does open the game up to movement and it being a much bigger factor in how to adchieve victory.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

yes, it's very very cool.

to make it super madly cool, please tune down some of the randomness in spotting.

as i have understood it, there are also some bugs in how some vehicles can spot infantry and that it's being fixed, but if that is not the case then fix it.

in 1.0 some spotting anomalies ruin the relative spotting coolness a bit.

[Battlefront.com]

One of the things I like best about the Relative Spotting system is that it isn't so obvious most of the time. Instead, it just "feels" right. To me that's the way it should be. Of course I've been playing with the system for 5 years or so, which means I take a lot of this for granted

Yup, the spotting responsiveness of buttoned up vehicles has been noticeably turned down with v1.01.

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

Steve, what about slysniper's comment of moving vs. non-moving units? I think he's right in that motion attracts the eye faster and at much greater distances, all else being equal. Of course, firing a weapon negates much of the advantage of non-moving.

Michael

[dakuth]

In this example - if a lone infantry-man had have spotted your ambush vehicle, wouldn't the owner of the sherman's taken action? Sure - the sherman's did not see the ambush, but he could have ordered them to move so they were less exposed.

Of course, relative spotting plays in subtle ways - if you're playing wego and the ambush is sprung early, you're completely beholden to the spotting rules for reaction (one of the reasons I play WEGO.) Also, if even you do react, without the tanks themselves spotting, the best you can do is area fire or retreat. I liken it to someone, somewhere screaming "get out! get out!"

[sburke]

What I find cool is there is no way for that infantryman to communicate that to the tank. Infantry/armor cooperation being what it was, the only way for the GI to communicate that was to climb on the tank and knock. By the time anyone had answered the hatch that intrepid little guy would have become a smear on the wreck. The only realistic option I see is if another tank had spotted it and communicated it across the tank's radio net. Unfortunately no tanks had spotted the ambusher so there was no one with means to communicate it.

As it was there were infantry units that did spot it and playing wego, my opponent could only watch it unfold. In RTS, maybe the second tank would have had a chance, but not the first.

One of the reasons I like WeGo as well is relative spotting plays out more as I can't be the "God" spotter quite as much. You make your plans, hope for the best and try to sieze the opportunties you are presented. For 60 seconds you lose complete control of the action. When it works it feels great, when it doesn't work you scream at your pixel truppen to not back into LOF of that AT gun you know is sitting in that treeline. (As I was doing yesterday as my Panther backed into LOF of a measly little 57mm AT gun that then provided my crew with additional ventilation holes.)

[Collingwood]

One of the reasons I like WeGo as well is relative spotting plays out more as I can't be the "God" spotter quite as much. You make your plans, hope for the best and try to sieze the opportunties you are presented. For 60 seconds you lose complete control of the action.

I love this aspect of the game too, relative spotting has greatly increased the unpredictability and drama of WeGo.

When it works it feels great, when it doesn't work you scream at your pixel truppen to not back into LOF of that AT gun you know is sitting in that treeline. (As I was doing yesterday as my Panther backed into LOF of a measly little 57mm AT gun that then provided my crew with additional ventilation holes.)

Last night the AI launched a perfectly timed mortar barrage in the space between a forest and a building I had ordered 3 squads to dash over to in separately timed runs. Squad after squad waited their turn to obediently run into the maelstrom and get chopped up in the rain of death. There was nothing I could do during that minute to tell them "Don't go yet! wait for the barrage to end!"

These are the uncontrolled moments when a battle can be lost, and I love it.

[Battlefront.com]

What I find cool is there is no way for that infantryman to communicate that to the tank. Infantry/armor cooperation being what it was, the only way for the GI to communicate that was to climb on the tank and knock. By the time anyone had answered the hatch that intrepid little guy would have become a smear on the wreck. The only realistic option I see is if another tank had spotted it and communicated it across the tank's radio net. Unfortunately no tanks had spotted the ambusher so there was no one with means to communicate it.

We've had some people report stuff like this as bugs. "My guys could clearly see the target, but my tank didn't. Fix or do somefink!!!". Well, it's already fixed

Units in motion raise their chance of being spotted. This is true even for CMx1. So yeah, a unit moving at a great distance is more likely to be spotted than a stationary one at close distance. The speed of the movement, the terrain, the number of eyeballs looking in that direction, the weather, the lighting, etc. all have a role to play in the spotting process.

Steve

[Spindry69]

Yup, the spotting responsiveness of buttoned up vehicles has been noticeably turned down with v1.01.

Steve

Thats great news!

[slysniper]

We've had some people report stuff like this as bugs. "My guys could clearly see the target, but my tank didn't. Fix or do somefink!!!". Well, it's already fixed

Units in motion raise their chance of being spotted. This is true even for CMx1. So yeah, a unit moving at a great distance is more likely to be spotted than a stationary one at close distance. The speed of the movement, the terrain, the number of eyeballs looking in that direction, the weather, the lighting, etc. all have a role to play in the spotting process.

Steve

I kind of figured it was programmed in, so when things do not work out as expected, one must relize its the exception to the norm. And to be trueful about it, that is like RL. The thing that was always amazing to me was how hard it was to see the enemy when I was in field training for combat. It really is a very confusing place. many times when you jump onto cover or concealment, it also makes it hard for you to see other locations unless you are willing to expose yourself. In first person shooters, it is common to be killed by a enemy closeby because you are focused on another area, and the one I play has sound to help and other tools, but situational awareness is always limited. So I really like it in the game, again at times I hate it if it seems very unlucky and a low percentage as to how one would think it should play out. but I still want it there.

My favorite one was a night attack I was playing and I had some armor and infantry trying to hold onto a village from a armor counter attack.

Tanks were burning, smoke was everywhere from all the shell firing.

I had two tanks facing towards the enemy line behind the village and one tank in the village facing the rear to fire into the backside of enemy units breaking into town.

This was working well until a enemy tank had driven right between my two tanks coming right through the middle of the little village through all the smoke and haze with no one spotting it.

When it came into view it could not have been 50 yards from either tank.

One tank spotted it, but that was already the tank in the enemy crosshairs. the second tank never did know where it was, it died without a clue.

My tank in the village was facing this the whole time but did not see a thing.

bu then it finially managed to get a view of it and ended the tanks life there after killing my two.

the reason I mention it is because it reminded my of many stories I have read from tankers during WWII, how they would drive right up on the enemy in all the confusion and smoke and have these type of crazy fire fights. So realistic yes, for gamers who want to control their battlefield, hair pulling. So I know why some complain, including me. at times.