Am I playing correctly? Struggling with tactics

[phil stanbridge]

I could do with some tactical advice - I'm an armchair general no more no less, with plenty of experience with CMx1 and Shock Force. But this is something else. It's difficult for the most part.

I'm currently battling my way through one of the US campaigns, and am taking pretty heavy casualties. I am trying my best to find cover, and to 'soften up' areas with my mortars and artillery prior to an all out assault, but I struggle. The bocage and narrow lanes make LOS very difficult for my spotters. By the time I have a unit capable of directing fire in position he has more often than not already been spotted himself. I struggle with armour also - by the time I have one of my Shermans in position, he himself has probably been taken out. There is very little 'hull-down' so do I lead with the armour, (which I have little) or lead with the infantry and use them as bait? There are so many different ways of playing this game.

Surprisingly I've managed total victories in 3 out of 4 missions so far - with lowish casualties. But mission 4 was a PIG and I had 32 KIA and about the same wounded, plus I lost 3 tanks. I came out with a draw. If the missions get harder I am in trouble.

I'm also struggling a little with artillery - where are the big guns? So far I've only had access to 81mm mortar rounds and 105mm stuff. I thought the allies had some big guns available to them (and air support which I have yet to see at all) - does anything show up in the campaigns?

[mjkerner]

Just in general, Phil, use the basic fire and maneuver tatics, and never go up the middle. I've learned the hard way that the center is almost always a beaten zone, and just like in RL, flank attacks, when possible, rule. I sometimes even put all my weight on one flank, with nothing up the center or the other flank. It's counter-intuitive from my old boardgame days, but one of the many reason CMBN is such a good simulation. It rewards good tactics.

Most of the time, I end up not using all of my arty assets either, since the momentum of the attack often just doesn't make it worthwhile. It's a different story on defense, of course. And remember, in RL, it was a bloody, bloody business at the sharp end.

[YankeeDog]

Difficult to offer advice without more specifics... the tactical quandaries you describe are the challenges the game presents, and the solutions are context-specific.

In general, I find that the biggest mistake I make in CMBN is trying to move too quickly. Take your time. Scout carefully. Give your units time to sit still and spot. Wait until you can get a proper artillery barrage in. When you think an enemy unit has absorbed enough suppressive fire to maneuver against it, give it one more minute before assaulting. Exceptions apply; sitting still for too long in one location can be a good way to get shellacked by artillery, so watch out for spotting rounds.

As for big guns, I can't speak for individual scenario/campaign designers' intents, but historically, the vast majority of artillery shells fired at the CM scale would be 105mm and below -- there were far fewer tubes available of the bigger stuff, and they would usually be firing deeper behind enemy lines. There are always the exceptions that prove the rule, but in general it was uncommon (though certainly not unheard of) for 155mm to be applied in Company or even Battalion-level actions, and the stuff bigger than this was rare at CM's scale.

[Rocky Balboa]

This is what I love about this game, sometimes you can do everything right but just like in real war, stuff happens. A Plt gets caught in a mortar barrage or valuable armor asset gets taken out at the wrong time. I also think that you are going to have to expect more casualties in CMBN than CMSF especially for the US.

Tactically speaking terrain should dictate how you use your forces, heavily fortified and restricted terrain like heavy bocage and woods will mean that your infantry will be your maneuver element while keeping your armor in support. The more open the terrain is the more your tanks can maneuver.

As for the US using their big guns and naval gunfire, I think most of the time they were being used in preparatory barrages and a lot less as on call assets.

Also wouldnt expect much from air support in this game. In CMSF, CAS was a great combat multiplier but in CMBN, even when you have it available they are just as likely to attack your own troops as the the enemy. The FO's during WWII just didn't have much control over them so as a result on call CAS was very hit and miss. US air power played a much larger and more effective role in interdiction missions, preparatory strikes and maintaining air superiority over the battlefield.

[z1812]

Since you have had total victories in 3 out of 4 scenarios I would suggest you continue as you are refining your approach as you go.

I still am not sure of how different systems work. Especially spotting for artillery and command and control.

I have found that sending out scouts is a necessary tactic. I usually give all of my troops a small target arc to be sure thet do not give away their position as they try to position themselves. This is very useful for scouts. Other than scouts the trick is to remember to cancel that arc if you presume contact is imminent.

To spot for artillery I send out a scout team with a small target arc. Usually I am able to find a place that gives them LOS without their being discovered. Then I roughly follow that path with the actual spotting team. Then I plot the fire.

I usually lead with infantry and follow with tanks. I don't intentionally use infantry as bait.

High casualties were quite normal in Normandy. Especially during the early days. I am currently reading "Four Stars of Valor" which among other operations chronicles the situation the 505 PIR faced in Normandy. Here is a link if you are interested.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/four-stars-of-valor-phil-nordyke/1007989728

When I rack up casualties I have to remind myself that this is histrorical. I am used to lower counts from CMSF which also seems to be inline with the combat it portrays.

[phil stanbridge]

Just in general, Phil, use the basic fire and maneuver tatics, and never go up the middle. I've learned the hard way that the center is almost always a beaten zone, and just like in RL, flank attacks, when possible, rule. I sometimes even put all my weight on one flank, with nothing up the center or the other flank. It's counter-intuitive from my old boardgame days, but one of the many reason CMBN is such a good simulation. It rewards good tactics.

Most of the time, I end up not using all of my arty assets either, since the momentum of the attack often just doesn't make it worthwhile. It's a different story on defense, of course. And remember, in RL, it was a bloody, bloody business at the sharp end.

This is excellent advice and something for me to munch on. I have tended to use the flanks, but I thought this was considered 'gamey' - that said, a win is a win isn't it?

Another problem I am experiencing - my Pioneer dudes never carry enough HE and they are invaluable in this theatre. I had a whole squad virtually wiped out by a enemy mortar barrage which I wasn't expecting. I'm seriously down on engineers so I'm severely curtailed - I can generally only go up the 'middle' route which is obviously the most protected. It's catch 22.

I'm always ending the missions with artillery in reserve - because I can't get any LOS to the target - or by the time I do have reasonable LOS some other units have already advanced past it.

Maybe I am playing too fast?

[phil stanbridge]

In general, I find that the biggest mistake I make in CMBN is trying to move too quickly. Take your time.

Roger that - perhaps that is one of my main problems. But I rarely find I have enough time to investigate everything - and in this campaign I am awarded for enemy kills as well as objectives.

[PJMaybe]

I have always had problems with spotters too. It seems very hard to get them in a forward position where they can see the enemy without being seen themselves. I move them forward on slow and keep them 'hidden' but I have been wondering if a hidden unit is less able to spot than one that is not hidden? If so, maybe a small target arc is a better choice?

[phil stanbridge]

High casualties were quite normal in Normandy. Especially during the early days. I am currently reading "Four Stars of Valor" which among other operations chronicles the situation the 505 PIR faced in Normandy. Here is a link if you are interested.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/four-stars-of-valor-phil-nordyke/1007989728

When I rack up casualties I have to remind myself that this is histrorical. I am used to lower counts from CMSF which also seems to be inline with the combat it portrays.

Thanks very much for this. I am currently reading Beevor's Dday and that is a fascinating insight into the hell hole that was Normandy during Dday - it is certainly food for thought what these guys had to endure. But in this campaign I am rewarded for taking less than 10% casualties which seems somewhat unrealistic considering the nature of the fight on the front line. For example, I just drew mission 4 because I suffered 32 KIA and about the same wounded. Obviously 10% or just over. Even though I acheived the objective - quite frustrating really, and a very difficult mission to boot!

[phil stanbridge]

I have always had problems with spotters too. It seems very hard to get them in a forward position where they can see the enemy without being seen themselves. I move them forward on slow and keep them 'hidden' but I have been wondering if a hidden unit is less able to spot than one that is not hidden? If so, maybe a small target arc is a better choice?

Yes I believe that is the problem - you need to use a cover arc rather than hiding them in order to be more effective at spotting. But I can't even get my FO's (or HQ's) close enough - they are a prime target for obvious reasons. By the time I have something resembling LOS it's normally too late for the artillery to be effective.

[phil stanbridge]

By the way, I'm playing Warrior on WEGO. That might make a difference.

[herr_oberst]

Roger that - perhaps that is one of my main problems. But I rarely find I have enough time to investigate everything - and in this campaign I am awarded for enemy kills as well as objectives.

The only time to NOT listen to the "Take your time" approach is when you see a spotting round land near your troops. Time to beat feet and get the heck out.

When approaching obvious choke points, I try to split my squads and string them out (using pause commands) while issuing either fast or quick movement orders.

The Courage and Fortitude campaign has a great "massacre you to make the point" instructional battle involving a certain beloved bridge... no shame in restarting that one several times.

My own results from attempts at this battle vary from losing two full platoons in 30 seconds to a killer barrage to sneaking my first 70 or so troops past it pretty cleanly. I keep going back to that saved game just to practice and try to engineer an 'optimal' outcome. Tons of fun.

[Broadsword56]

Yes I believe that is the problem - you need to use a cover arc rather than hiding them in order to be more effective at spotting. But I can't even get my FO's (or HQ's) close enough - they are a prime target for obvious reasons. By the time I have something resembling LOS it's normally too late for the artillery to be effective.

This happens because the only kind of arty spotting we can do is with front-line FO units on the battlefield. The game can't model the more effective kind of spotting, which played a huge tactical role in the bocage, because these spotters operated from higher ground and church steeples that would be off-map in CMBN. (See my other posts where I mentioned how we can better simulate this, with defined battlefields inside larger maps, and special setup areas for remote spotters.)

[Broadsword56]

Using tanks as support/assault guns is a good tip, but I keep having this lesson drilled into my thick head: RESPECT THE PANZERFAUST! I can see why the Sherman crews came to imagine a German AT team lurking in every treeline and behind every corner -- and why they'd often withdraw to standoff distance, greatly upsetting the infantry who were counting on them for close support. OTOH, I can also see why the tankers came to mistrust the infantrymen, who were supposed to be spotting/flushing out/suppressing those hidden AT teams ahead of the armor -- instead, I sometimes find the infantry is too busy keeping their heads down/cowering etc., leaving their tank buddies unprotected. Very realistic, and great fun, in a very frustrating way...

[Agua]

This has been my experience, only, and I'm speaking VERY generally here, but it is the rule, rather than the exception that the maps just don't allow enough room and/or, given advancing troops, time, for my spotters to be of any use. The small mortars which are organic to a squad, they'll follow along, but with the bigger stuff I take a use it or lose it approach with preplanned barrages on whatever looks to be likely defensive lines. I'm speaking very generally here.

[phil stanbridge]

This has been my experience, only, and I'm speaking VERY generally here, but it is the rule, rather than the exception that the maps just don't allow enough room and/or, given advancing troops, time, for my spotters to be of any use. The small mortars which are organic to a squad, they'll follow along, but with the bigger stuff I take a use it or lose it approach with preplanned barrages on whatever looks to be likely defensive lines. I'm speaking very generally here.

This is my experience too - the maps are not big enough by far, and the time alloted per mission is not enough. But this has always been the way with CMx2 with the exception of a few missions in SF.

[Broadsword56]

This is my experience too - the maps are not big enough by far, and the time alloted per mission is not enough. But this has always been the way with CMx2 with the exception of a few missions in SF.

The beauty of CMBN is that we can change both of these limitations, and make scenarios of any length + maps of huge size if we want. The game's only been out a couple of months yet, so the modders and mappers are really just hitting their stride. Look for lots of bigger and better things to come!

[Agua]

Just curious, what campaign are you working through? Sounds like Road to Montebourg. In C & F, I think the first bad@ss mission comes on much earlier than #4.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I have always had problems with spotters too. It seems very hard to get them in a forward position where they can see the enemy without being seen themselves. I move them forward on slow and keep them 'hidden' but I have been wondering if a hidden unit is less able to spot than one that is not hidden? If so, maybe a small target arc is a better choice?

Yes, but keep in mind that your spotter only needs to be looking at the target area when you call the mission and when the spotting rounds arrive. In between those events you can hide him. Just remember to unhide when the artillery mission button starts flashing.

[John1966]

Roger that - perhaps that is one of my main problems. But I rarely find I have enough time to investigate everything - and in this campaign I am awarded for enemy kills as well as objectives.

I suppose its not an actual difference with CMx2 but I notice that the scenarios are all a lot longer than they were in CMx1 (on average).

As a result you do actually have the time to advance slowly and do proper recon and spotting. I'm yet to find that I'm under any time pressure. Funnily enough this is actually of of the hardest things to get used to.

The battlefield seems a lot more dangerous place than it was in CMx1 (whether it really is or that's just an illusion created by seeing individual men go down, I'm not sure) so you really need to be playing it a slower pace. But I still get that CMx1 "press on, press on" itch that always seems to take over.

Calling in arty forces you to slow down as it also seems to take a lot longer than it did in CMx1.

[Thomas Frey]

This happens because the only kind of arty spotting we can do is with front-line FO units on the battlefield. The game can't model the more effective kind of spotting, which played a huge tactical role in the bocage, because these spotters operated from higher ground and church steeples that would be off-map in CMBN. (See my other posts where I mentioned how we can better simulate this, with defined battlefields inside larger maps, and special setup areas for remote spotters.)

I have found that the AI for offsie artillary is spotty. This seems especially true on the German side that seems to be a lot slower at responding and getting to FFE. Accuracy is also a bigger issue on the German side from my experience.

Also, don't forget that tanks can be spotters and call in strikes.

[bodkin]

Thanks very much for this. I am currently reading Beevor's Dday and that is a fascinating insight into the hell hole that was Normandy during Dday - it is certainly food for thought what these guys had to endure. But in this campaign I am rewarded for taking less than 10% casualties which seems somewhat unrealistic considering the nature of the fight on the front line. For example, I just drew mission 4 because I suffered 32 KIA and about the same wounded. Obviously 10% or just over. Even though I acheived the objective - quite frustrating really, and a very difficult mission to boot!

I had the same opinion, it seemed like the campaign was for a modern a setting with those strict casualty limits unlike the meat grinder that was Normandy.

Also you might want to try playing RT rather than WEGO, I switched whilst playing the Courage and Fortitude campaign and it was like playing a different game with the increased control over units.

[womble]

I have found that the AI for offsie artillary is spotty. This seems especially true on the German side that seems to be a lot slower at responding and getting to FFE. Accuracy is also a bigger issue on the German side from my experience.

Also, don't forget that tanks can be spotters and call in strikes.

That there 'll be confirmation bias kicking in, I reckon, because my experience tells me exactly the opposite. German arty is faster and more accurate than American as far as I can tell

To be serious, there are a lot of factors affecting artillery, and any smallish sample risks having those skewed one way or another: was it an FO calling it? What experience level are the elements involved? Was the C2 network compromised at all at crucial moments?

[Renaud]

Tips on things that are working for me:

1. Scouts out: break out 4-8 2-man scout teams from a company (pick from the better squads). Fan them out to ID or annoy targets, moving a little (hunt and slow, 30-50 meters per hop), stopping to listen (use pauses liberally in WEGO). Always have overwatch in position, because it's the overwatch that will actually ID the enemy much of the time (not the terrified scouts). Scouts without overwatch are still useful, because you can find the enemy with your gods-eye view even if your other units don't 'see' the enemy due to C2, but not as useful. Especially vs. Human that will kill your scounts and run off before you can respond.

edit: oh I forgot to mention that the 360/30m cover arc is critical to scout team survival. You want them going to ground when fired on, and generally never firing back. Without this they will die almost immediately.

2. At start of game, set short (typically 360/30meter) target arcs around all your HQ's and onboard mortars (if you are going to move them around), this makes these high value units less likely to draw attention to themselves and get taken out early.

3. when moving up units to the next phase line - usually a hedgerow (particularly HQ's and FO's), SLOW them the last 10 meters into possible enemy LOS, combined with HIDE (make sure hide is selected, so they will autohide when reaching the end of waypoint). Then, unhide them selectively, insuring that they have their 30-meter cover arcs set (see #2 above).

4. Always keep a reserve force completely uncommitted - typically 1/3rd of your total force (1 platoon from a company, for instance). Pretend these guys don't exist and play with the other 2/3rd as long as humanly possible. You'll be thankful later. A nice variation on this, if you have a good company CO, is handpick squads/teams and assign directly to the CO. This way you keep 3 maneuver platoons, with an effective reserve force directly under the CO.

[Bradley Dick]

At first, I had a tough time keeping my casualties low if I tried to finish the missions in the times allotted by Road to Monteburg campaign. As I've gotten better at dealing with hedgerows and on-board mortars, I've sped up dramatically with less casualties. The main drawback to this is using artillery. Being almost completely on the attack in this campaign, I hardly ever find myself able to take full advantage of off-map heavy artillery or machine guns.

Heavy artillery takes too long to call in, it's too deadly to friendlies on the advance if you screw up your timing in WEGO and it forces me to stop my advance which I'm usually pressing pretty hard when the Germans begin to break. If my spotter has LOS and isn't being shot, then I'm moving up. Machine guns are great if you can bring them in after your rifle teams have engaged. As said by others, I tend to use scout teams and rifle squads with on-board mortars in support as my go to units.

I've been playing mostly offensively though on this campaign and haven't had a good chance to use machine guns or artillery completely to my liking.