slysniper Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Just one question as to if it will ever change. Love the game but one thing that drives me crazy is how the infantry squad forms it man placement when on the move, they generally look like they are moving in column, which almost always would be the last thing they would be doing in a enviroment where they are in contact with the enemy. It would be great to give them orders for v, wedge or diamond or in line or whatever. but seeing the enemy open up on them in column formation where one bullit can almost hit every member in the squad really does take away one important aspect of small unit combat. And reminds me, this still is a game and has a way to go. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 as far as im aware of, their spacing is abstracted, it may look like they are all bunched up but the game treats them as if they are separate and spread out 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 The "Split Teams" command is your friend. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodyBucket Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I've had a few situations where squads are lined up after exiting doorway or hedgerow gap, or moving along a wall and a MG42 gets to play "Bowling for GIs" and it scores a strike. :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 as far as im aware of, their spacing is abstracted, it may look like they are all bunched up but the game treats them as if they are separate and spread out I think you are wrong here. They are bunched up, but the effects of explosions is tuned down. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 The 'face' command (G) is your friend. Depending on terrain undulations the three teams will arrange hemselves in any number of patterns. Well, any number you can get three objects to line up in. I often do a 'face' command before starting the move then another 'face' command at the final destination 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I think you are wrong here. They are bunched up, but the effects of explosions is tuned down. oh well, as always i stand corrected then 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chek Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 The 'face' command (G) is your friend. Depending on terrain undulations the three teams will arrange hemselves in any number of patterns. Well, any number you can get three objects to line up in. I often do a 'face' command before starting the move then another 'face' command at the final destination That's a nice little tip and all this time I've been splitting teams and doubling and tripling my waypoints. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomApple Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 That's a nice little tip and all this time I've been splitting teams and doubling and tripling my waypoints. Its good practice to use the face command liberally. It says in the manual face has an impact on spotting. So with that, as well as utilizing terrain effectively, theres a huge incentive to get in the habit of using face. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xian Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I use the face command every time I use a movement command. Perhaps it would be a nice idea for BF to include an option to trigger a 'face' command automatically after right-clicking the last waypoint of a movement command. If I remember correctly, CM1 had something like this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 The last waypoint in a movement does automatically assign a face command, I believe, in the direction of travel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 The 'face' command (G) is your friend. Depending on terrain undulations the three teams will arrange hemselves in any number of patterns. Well, any number you can get three objects to line up in. I often do a 'face' command before starting the move then another 'face' command at the final destination Very true, my problem is not with the troops when they are at any location, the face command does a good job and the troops are doing pretty good at finding cover. The comment is really only about when they are on the move. they have a follow the leader mentality, which really looks ok in some situations, but in open ground and the enemy likely towards your front, is a murderous position to put yourself into. And no, their position is not abstracted, I have seen one bullit kill multible soildiers that are in a line one behind another. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemuelG Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Yeah, quite simply this is one of the most important things on the 'to-do' list, if what we want is as realistic a 1:1 tactical game as possible. "Line', 'column', and 'scattered', as status-variables which apply to all movements; I could live without anything more complex, but will have 'wedge' etc if it were simple enough to do. Splitting squads does not help, neither does facing orders or anything else, this one has to be coded. (edit) oh, and a 'one-at-a-time' movement order - one guy 'fasts' to the waypoint, when he arrives the next guy sets-off, and so-on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 The "Split Teams" command is your friend. Indeed. You can then arrange the teams in whatever formation you like. And if you give them a Quick order, they dodge around individually and don't move in a column. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemuelG Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Indeed. You can then arrange the teams in whatever formation you like. And if you give them a Quick order, they dodge around individually and don't move in a column. Firstly, yes they do - it is leading to extreme casualties from MGs in a scenario I'm designing, one which involves a certain 500m-long causeway. Yes, sometimes on quick and fast they can become separated (some guys faster than others), but when running along my causeway they will invariably take the exact same line as the guy in front - running along the ditch on the sdie of the road (mostly, occasionally there are bizarre detours through hedges and back onto the road), sometimes they cross to other side of the road for unknown reasons, again every single man will dutifully follow the steps of the guy in front. The HMGs covering the road go to town... an accurate burst down the length of the causeway is usually good for 2-3 guys 'cause they have such a hard-on for the guy directly preceding them and eat the same bullets, it's a real horror-show. Something as simple as a 'line' (advancing abreast from each other) formation would cut down on casualties enormously. And yes, splitting squads does help, now you only lose a third of the section instead of all of them, it's a start, but it's been a few battles since I deployed an un-split squad anyway due to their tendency for huddling together in a pile. My Dawn-of-War playing flatmate is getting good now, all it takes is a coupla light-mortar shells out of the blue and you can kiss your whole section goodbye. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 As nice as it would be to see the units have formations and be able to specify them, I'm just as happy not to have this level of micromanagement to worry about. I think, too, that given the game's use of action points, abstracted microterrain, and the way units have to fit into them, things are too abstracted at that level perhaps for formations to really work in CMBN as we'd like them to. I'm gratified, at least, that when infantry units travel on foot along a road, they form a staggered column to either side and don't just walk down the middle of the road. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Firstly, yes they do - it is leading to extreme casualties from MGs in a scenario I'm designing, one which involves a certain 500m-long causeway. Yes, sometimes on quick and fast they can become separated (some guys faster than others), but when running along my causeway they will invariably take the exact same line as the guy in front - running along the ditch on the sdie of the road (mostly, occasionally there are bizarre detours through hedges and back onto the road), sometimes they cross to other side of the road for unknown reasons, again every single man will dutifully follow the steps of the guy in front. But isn't that how it should be running along a causeway? I mean, it's a narrow pathway and even if they were staggered to the extent that allowed a single burst would likely hit more than one soldier. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemuelG Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 But isn't that how it should be running along a causeway? I mean, it's a narrow pathway and even if they were staggered to the extent that allowed a single burst would likely hit more than one soldier. Michael Point taken, yeah, you expect a bit o' that - the worst is when the guys following far behind get suppressed by the fire directed at the vanguard and start moping around at the jump-off - usually the first guys across do ok, and the ones following end up crawling around in the kill-sack 'till mortars put em out their misery (more-or-less what actually happened in reality). I'm more focused on the actual behaviour of the running guys, and they really are uncanny in the way they follow the footsteps of the guy in front as closely as they are able, I am certain it's a liability, at this point I can't be convinced otherwise - are there ways to mitigate it, yeah, but there could be better - I remember reading that HE was 'nerfed' to compensate for the squad-compression-syndrome (SCS, freshly-coined)? It's not like a line formation is something particularly exotic or unusual (or that this hasn't been done by a CM competitor), and having several small columns advancing in a line is not exactly the same thing. Are you saying you'd never find a use for proper formations? I bet you would 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Are you saying you'd never find a use for proper formations? I bet you would Oh sure. I bet there are lots of variations that would be cool to have. I was just thinking of how to live with what we have in the meantime. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodyBucket Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Perhaps veteran troops should be less likely to line up and bunch up as they move. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayA55 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 As nice as it would be to see the units have formations and be able to specify them, I'm just as happy not to have this level of micromanagement to worry about. I think, too, that given the game's use of action points, abstracted microterrain, and the way units have to fit into them, things are too abstracted at that level perhaps for formations to really work in CMBN as we'd like them to. I'm gratified, at least, that when infantry units travel on foot along a road, they form a staggered column to either side and don't just walk down the middle of the road. Constantly having to split teams and making liberal use of the face command, creates more micromanagement. It would be more fluid and realistic with formation orders. Or, at least some realistic formations by default, instead of everyone moving in a bunch or column. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoex Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 LemuelG, by your description, I think the main problem here is the "advancing along a 500m long causeway covered by multiple HMGs" part. True, the movement AI appears to be aggravating the problem a bit, but what you want your GIs to do here seems like a recipe for mass suicide anyway. Why do your troops have to advance along a long, well-covered road in the first place? Doesn't seem like something that would go well IRL either. Even if the units were spaced better, they would surely take enough casualties pretty soon to pin them, and then it would be game over anyhow. It sure doesn't sound like a scenario I'd want to play, can't you find some other way to let the GIs attack? Or prep the defenders with arty/mortars/direct fire to reduce their effectiveness? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costard Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Is the column advance dependent on the cover available - on the causeway, is there a wall that provides some cover, so the squad uses what it can? I think the advance across open ground tends to be less linear. If the movement is plotted alongside bocage the squad tends to use it for maximum cover i.e. they advance in column. Perhaps the movement order could give a secondary option for breadth of front for the advance: right click, place click for breadth = use the whole road (or field) instead of the ditch to one side? It seems like it might be a lot of work for not too much gain, and bound to bring into play second (and third and fourth...) order problems associated with the end point of the movement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I have to admit I am just not seeing this. In a current QB I am playing, I ordered several squads to advance using Quick, and they are well spread out both left to right and front to back. When they reach the end of their movement they are still spread. And these are green troops; I would expect veterans to do even better. I haven't tried using Move, but ISTR in the training scenarios they did march in files then. If you are using Quick and they are running in line, it must be because movement is restricted on the causeway and they can't do otherwise. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemuelG Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Why do your troops have to advance along a long, well-covered road in the first place? Doesn't seem like something that would go well IRL either. It does seem less than desirable huh? Unfortunately for the guys asked to do the job, that's exactly how it played in reality (La Fiere causeway, June 9th 1000 jump-off). And yeah, it got pretty hot. Is the column advance dependent on the cover available - on the causeway, is there a wall that provides some cover, so the squad uses what it can? I think the advance across open ground tends to be less linear. Yeah, there are hedges and a raised berm running along either side of the road. I dig what you're saying - every man makes the same decision to use the same piece of cover in the same way, this could explain the precision with which they emulate each-other's pathing on their straight sprint, even down to making the same weird detours and swerves. Anyways, long story short: squad-formation status-variables, would be nice/realistic, game still quite playable without 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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