Hidden units - why no self preservation?

[Steiner14]

Why stay units hidden, although they are under fire from very close units?

[Niessuh]

good question. At least, for future patches, I hope units will unhide when enemy enter their cover arc, "a la CMx1"

[TheVulture]

And when they change it, we can complain that hiding units stop hiding all the time to return ineffectual fire because some stray bullets from way over yonder land near them and they think they are being shot at....

Just about every change to tac AI behaviour has some unintended consequences - not all changes will improve the overall experience, so be careful what you wish for.

[stikkypixie]

good question. At least, for future patches, I hope units will unhide when enemy enter their cover arc, "a la CMx1"

It should be working like this already. Have you tested it?

[hoolaman]

This has been tweaked and tweaked again, so if you think there is a problem please post specifics.

[bodkin]

good question. At least, for future patches, I hope units will unhide when enemy enter their cover arc, "a la CMx1"

This is how it works now.

[Oddball_E8]

This is how it works now.

thats not my experience...

learnt that the hard way too, set up an ambush like the good 'ole CMx1 days (troops in foxholes, hidden and with cover arcs) and not until the enemy was within more or less melee distance did they pop their heads up and shoot... and they came under fire far earlier than that.

also, i checked, they werent cowering, they were still hiding...

[Niessuh]

My fault, you all are right! I have not heard about this improvement since CMSF, but I have tested right now and works like a charm.

[bodkin]

thats not my experience...

learnt that the hard way too, set up an ambush like the good 'ole CMx1 days (troops in foxholes, hidden and with cover arcs) and not until the enemy was within more or less melee distance did they pop their heads up and shoot... and they came under fire far earlier than that.

also, i checked, they werent cowering, they were still hiding...

Could they actually see the unit? Hiding makes spotting harder, although you should be harder to spot aswell. What was the experience difference and morale state between the two sets of troops?

[Wildman]

Didn't we just cover some of this in the "Foxholes not providing enough cover thread", Steiner?

Steve has already mentioned that foxholes and defensive positions in general were being tweaked.

Oddball,

I'm not sure went wrong for you but hide with a cover arc has ALWAYS brought my hiding troops out of hide and start shooting...especially AT assets. Do you happen to have some specific save games that show otherwise that I and other testers can review?

[SteveP]

This is one of those threads that mystify me, so I ran a quick test using the Pleasantly Shaded Woodland scenario. I gave the Germans in the first Hedgerow covered arcs and hide orders, playing Warrior level. None of the Germans could spot any of the attackers until the latter were right on top of them -- so, of course, they had no way of knowing if the attackers were within the covered arc. I tried the same thing with an HQ unhidden, as spotter, to see if he would communicate to his units to unhide when he saw the attackers had come close. He did not.

I don't have a definitive explanation as to why others see the hide/covered arc working like it did in CM1. However, I think if the ambushers are in poor concealment, their spotting ability may be better and they will see attackers moving into the covered arc. Of course, the attackers may see them as well. It's also possible that tanks are easier to spot while hidden, and therefore AT units are more likely to unhide at the right time.

[Steiner14]

Listen to the beta-testers: there is no problem!

[SteveP]

Listen to the beta-testers: there is no problem!

Well, I've been a beta tester for another sim game by another small company, so I have no problem cutting them lots of slack.

It's also worth pointing out that when you script an AI Plan, there is no possibility of giving an AI group a simultaneous Ambush (i.e., covered arc) and Hide order. Admittedly, the AI Plan function is limited, but that might provide some additional evidence that the covered arc and hide commands are not intended to work together as they did in CM1. Otherwise, that is something which needs to be fixed.

[Wildman]

This is one of those threads that mystify me, so I ran a quick test using the Pleasantly Shaded Woodland scenario. I gave the Germans in the first Hedgerow covered arcs and hide orders, playing Warrior level. None of the Germans could spot any of the attackers until the latter were right on top of them -- so, of course, they had no way of knowing if the attackers were within the covered arc. I tried the same thing with an HQ unhidden, as spotter, to see if he would communicate to his units to unhide when he saw the attackers had come close. He did not.

I don't have a definitive explanation as to why others see the hide/covered arc working like it did in CM1. However, I think if the ambushers are in poor concealment, their spotting ability may be better and they will see attackers moving into the covered arc. Of course, the attackers may see them as well. It's also possible that tanks are easier to spot while hidden, and therefore AT units are more likely to unhide at the right time.

Thank you for some specifics. I'll take a closer look at some of the things you described. thanks again.

[MikeyD]

In CMSF there were complaints and complaints about hiding infantry spontaneously opening fire instead of staying hidden as ordered. This was supposedly a 'fundamental flaw" according to the grousers. So BFC changed the behavior to the way players demanded, And now you're complaining that they don't open up on their own. Those milk can flavor objects in the editor - do you imagine they're half empty or half full?

[SteveP]

In CMSF there were complaints and complaints about hiding infantry spontaneously opening fire instead of staying hidden as ordered. This was supposedly a 'fundamental flaw" according to the grousers. So BFC changed the behavior to the way players demanded, And now you're complaining that they don't open up on their own. Those milk can flavor objects in the editor - do you imagine they're half empty or half full?

For the record, I have no complaint about the way things seem to be working in CMBN -- except that I have some lingering doubts about the effectiveness of concealment in general. I just didn't like to see people arguing about something that was so easy to test.

[LemuelG]

I gave the Germans in the first Hedgerow covered arcs and hide orders, playing Warrior level. None of the Germans could spot any of the attackers until the latter were right on top of them -- so, of course, they had no way of knowing if the attackers were within the covered arc.

Was it a 'big' bocage? If so it would be unsurprising due to the soldiers lying on their bellies being unlikely to see over the earthen berm under the hedgerow. Small bocage might be a different story?

[PhantomApple]

Stainer, it has nothing to do with specific people are beta testers or not. Not sure why you focus your angst towards them. Run some tests, take screenshots, and post your findings.

Not sure what you expect without that.

[AslakH]

This game is a mess. Just... horrible.

If something is wrong, it's just abstracted.

It's sad.. I've never owned a game that I've played as little, before uninstalling it, as CMBN. I'll wait till it's wickedly patched.

[Wildman]

Mmmmm...OK. Sorry to hear your experience wasn't up to your expectations.

[Steiner14]

In CMSF there were complaints and complaints about hiding infantry spontaneously opening fire instead of staying hidden as ordered. This was supposedly a 'fundamental flaw" according to the grousers. So BFC changed the behavior to the way players demanded, And now you're complaining that they don't open up on their own. Those milk can flavor objects in the editor - do you imagine they're half empty or half full?

I cannot comment on CMSF but i can hardly imagine players demanded no self preservation behaviour, only because cover arcs were ordered. But i take this as acknowledgement that something is not working as it should.

How difficult it is to solve that and balance it, i don't know. But i know that hidden units with covered arcs should definately not stay hidden, if the enemy is standing a few meters behind them or at their side and is already killing them.

I really miss the beauteousness from CMx1, where the experience of units was so perfectly balanced with the self preservation measures and when given orders were overriden.

[SteveP]

Was it a 'big' bocage? If so it would be unsurprising due to the soldiers lying on their bellies being unlikely to see over the earthen berm under the hedgerow. Small bocage might be a different story?

You can look at the scenario yourself. It's included with the game.

I believe that in CMBN, Hide means go flat and don't do anything that will give away your position, including looking up much. So one can easily imagine that in a lot of terrain, spotting anything from that position would be difficult.

However, I have not done a range of tests using different concealment terrains in CMBN, because I don't believe in the Hide/Covered Arc theory (until of course BFC tells me I should ).

[cool breeze]

LOL at Stiener making ANOTHER THREAD! Seems you want ALL the attention.

You order your men across the field toward the enemy. You men thinks its probably suicide. They go anyway cause its their job. 20 seconds later half of them are dead and the other half are peeing themselves and are now sure about that suicide thing. They are no longer following your orders, they are sure its suicide. Why should it be different for hide? They will stop hiding once they KNOW its suicide, they will stop charging the enemy in the same kinda way. Every body just really wants to do what you told them to do. Your the BOSS.