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Just play the la deset scenario as America side .I lost one M10 and Knock out three Panther .in fact I manager to penetrate the panther's front low hull once and turret front once,but all these two penetrations are ineffective,all panther losses result from side attack.one from 57mm first then bazooka,the other two from M10's 76mm.I suppose in fact normandy is good place to ambush these big cats because those high bocage give you the good cover to flank them and the fire range is always below 150-200 yards

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The (widely discredited, lately) rule of thumb was it took three Shermans to nail a Panther. I don't think the original meaning was three Shermans had to die, more that a Panther can't face-front along multiple points of the compass at the same time. If you approach him from three different directions one of those is going to be a flank shot. Of course there's rarely individual Panthers, usually pairs and threes. That turns it into a chess match.

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The (widely discredited, lately) rule of thumb was it took three Shermans to nail a Panther. I don't think the original meaning was three Shermans had to die, more that a Panther can't face-front along multiple points of the compass at the same time. If you approach him from three different directions one of those is going to be a flank shot. Of course there's rarely individual Panthers, usually pairs and threes. That turns it into a chess match.

You need 20.000 Shermans to kill 8.735 Panthers. But if there are 8.736 Panthers, you're ****ed.

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17 pdr and an ambush would seem to be good answers. This rather long cut and paste from an article on Fireflies also touches on one of the other threads about Panthers firing whilst moving.

"Despite this, the Firefly's increased firepower was much valued, and during many engagements, the Firefly proved its worth, knocking out Tigers and Panthers at long range, as well as less formidable tanks like the Mark IVs and StuGs.

One example of this increased firepower was displayed by Lt. G. K. Henry's Firefly during the defense of Norrey-en-Bessin on 9 June against an attack by the 3rd Company of the 12th SS Panzer Regiment of the 12th SS Panzer Division. Determined to capture the town in preparation for a larger offensive to drive the British and Canadians back into the sea, Kurt Meyer ordered an attack by 12 Panthers of the 3rd Company and infantry to attack Norrey-en-Bessin and drive the Canadians out of the town. The attack got under way at 1300 hours with the Panthers racing to the town at full speed only to stop to fire their guns, quickly outrunning their infantry support which was forced to the ground by Allied artillery fire. Within 1,000 m (1,100 yd) of the town, nine Shermans of the 1st Hussars opened fire into the advancing Panthers' flanks. Lt. Henry's gunner, Trooper A. Chapman, waited until the Panthers "lined up like ducks in a row" and quickly knocked out five with just six rounds. The attack was repulsed with the loss of seven of the 12 Panthers.

A similar example occurred on 14 June, during Operation Perch. Sgt. Harris of the 4th/7th Dragoon Guards, along with three standard Shermans, set up defensive positions along with the infantry after successfully driving out the Germans in the village of Lingèvres, near Tilly-sur-Seulles. Looking through his binoculars, Sgt. Harris spotted two Panthers advancing from the east. He opened fire at a range of 800 metres (870 yd), knocking out the lead Panther with his first shot, and the second Panther with his second. Relocating to a new position on the other side of the town, he spotted another three Panthers approaching from the west. From his well-concealed flanking position, he and his gunner, Trooper Mackillop, eliminated all three with just three rounds. Harris and his gunner had knocked out five Panthers with as many rounds, demonstrating the potency of the Firefly, especially when firing from a defensive position on advancing enemy tanks.

In perhaps its most famous action, a group of seven Tiger tanks from the 3rd Company and HQ Company, Schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 101 supported by several Panzer IV tanks and Stug IV assault guns were ambushed by Fireflies from A Squadron, 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry, 33rd Armoured Brigade, A Squadron, the Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment, 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade and B Squadron, The 144th Regiment Royal Armoured Corps, 33rd Armoured Brigade. Tanks of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry and elements of the 51st (Highland) Division reached the French village of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil on the morning of 8 August 1944 during Operation Totalize. While B Squadron stayed around the village, A and C Squadrons moved further south into a wood called Delle de la Roque. C Squadron positioned themselves on the east side of the woods and the understrength A Squadron in the southern portion with No. 3 Troop on the western edge of the wood. From this position, they overlooked a large open section of ground and were able to watch as German tanks advanced up Route nationale 158 from the town of Cintheaux. Under strict orders from the troop commander, they held their fire until the German tanks were well within range. Ekins, the gunner of Sergeant Gordon's Sherman Firefly (Velikye Luki - A Squadrons tanks were named after towns in the Soviet Union) had yet to fire his gun in action. With the Tiger tanks in range, the order was given to fire. What followed was an almost 12 minute battle that saw Ekins destroying all three Tigers that No. 3 Troop could see; there were actually seven Tiger tanks in the area heading north along with some other tanks and self propelled guns. A short time later, the main German counterattack was made in the direction of C Squadron. A Squadron (less Sgt Gordon who had been wounded and had already bailed out of the Firefly) moved over to support them and in the resulting combat, Ekins destroyed a Panzer IV before his tank was hit and the crew were forced to bail out. One of the Tigers Ekins is credited with knocking out was that of Michael Wittmann, though there is still some controversy over whether Ekins really killed Wittman, as Fireflies of the Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment also fired at the Tigers from a closer range of 150 m (160 yd)."

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The very nature of tank combat is misleading. We are assuming so many variables in the thinking of Sherman vs Panther. The fact is, the panther was only as good as the crew made it. I read countless tales where inferior technology trumps superior tech that all we are doing is comparing stats. It's all cool to watch deflected rounds hitting the panther, but my experience in the game is that what we all want to do is just sit there, nicely curled up in our invincible tiger/panther and shoot stuff. I get that, trust me. But it's not what happened, and I for one delight at the prospect of my opponent sitting there nicely waiting for more things to shoot at, delighting in setting my Shermans on fire while I plot to move my main forces into position to rake his Heer infantry with m1's and BAR's. I'll eventually have 3 or 4 more armored vehicles than he, since he wanted to revel in his glorious panther, and I'll maneuver for a kill shot advancing to range that my poor un uber Sherman can blow the lid of his not so strong side armor.

I guess my point is, what we are debating here is paper stats vs paper stats. I'm sure more panthers were lot to malfunction or crew destruction than ever to tank fire. I don't think the same can be said for the Sherman.

Frankly, im totally rambling now and this post makes absolutely no sense, and I can't edit it anymore, since I'm doing it from an iPhone and it won't let me go up in this fail quick post box.

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Frankly, im totally rambling now and this post makes absolutely no sense, and I can't edit it anymore, since I'm doing it from an iPhone and it won't let me go up in this fail quick post box.

ROTFLMAO

note to self, never get into a serious debate using an iphone and the quick post box. :D

note to hm stanley - actually your post wasn't incoherent and I think it made your point.

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Of course if you look at the first large paragraph of my earlier post - there were nine Shermans. If one alone accounted for five of the seven dead Panthers then the others must have been rotten shots. Or there was stuff pinging off everywhere.

They were flank shots according to the account. I vote for rotton shots.

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however, back in the game then the US forces don't have 17pdr so they are going to have to rely on tactics and maneuver rather than getting in a slugging match. Trouble is in QB's panther G has zero rarity and really isnt that much more expensive than shermans. House rules needed so as not to stack up on panthers and make a dull game.

There is of course air support with rockets, but you need to persuade the panther to sit still for about 11/12mins first...

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however, back in the game then the US forces don't have 17pdr so they are going to have to rely on tactics and maneuver rather than getting in a slugging match. Trouble is in QB's panther G has zero rarity and really isnt that much more expensive than shermans. House rules needed so as not to stack up on panthers and make a dull game.

There is of course air support with rockets, but you need to persuade the panther to sit still for about 11/12mins first...

A couple of solutions from a QB point-of-view.

1) House rules as you suggest.

2) Play red/red or blue/blue. CMBN permits it.

3) Play with congested maps/fog. Shermans and M10s do OK against Panthers without 1000m fields of fire.

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This is going to sound bad, but I've found the best way is to lead with infantry not tanks when playing the Allies. If you can spot the Panther first then hide and call in 155 mm fire. A direct hit with destroy them and they aren't terribly hard to immobilize. Also, the 105 on the assualt Sherman can destroy or cripple them even from the front. The AI tends to leave tanks in one spot so they are vulnerable to artillery.

Against a human all I can suggest is use all available cover, get close and try to take by surprise from side or rear. You can use infantry with zooks or tanks for this because the armor is easy to penetrate from those angles. Also don't forget your tanks can make smoke to help them hide when moving through gaps that might be covered. You have good chance in close combat with the Sherman because turret can slew much faster than the Panther's if you surprise it.

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It was said that when encountering a Panther you send 5 Shermans and expect to lose 4. You have to be prepared to take losses while aiming to attack the weaker side and rear of a Panther.

The Panther did have some weak spots that would allow success when attacking the front. I can't recall the specifics, but I think it was possible to bounce a 37mm or 57mm against the ground so it would deflect up and hit the less armored bottom of a Panther. It was also possible to hit the Panther at the point where the turret and hull met and that would take it out. That all being said and done the aim was usually to use superior numbers and flank a Panther.

Overall the Panther was a better tank in most respects. On soft ground its suspension and wider tracks gave it lower ground pressure so it could be more maneuverable that a Sherman, even though it was heavier. The Panthers 75 mm gun was awesome and the sighting system was far superior. IIRC the Panthers 75mm gun had better penetration than the 88mm due to higher velocity.

Mechanically the Panther could be very problematical. A Sherman could go a 100 miles a day and do so day in day out. A Panther would be hard pressed to do the same feat. Another weakness was the Panther used gasoline, not diesel and thus could burn fiercely if the gasoline ignited.

American air power was also a major headache for the Germans.

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This is going to sound bad, but I've found the best way is to lead with infantry not tanks when playing the Allies.

That doesn't sound bad at all. Instead it sounds exactly like what the Allies found for themselves in 1944.

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