panzermartin Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Well there might be possible bug with the way trees are displayed in the guest's PC when in online and possibly PBEM(?) My opponent claimed that his tank refused to fire through a wide gap in trees despite clear LOS. I checked his position afterwards and it looked completely blocked on my end(Host pc). Now I loaded the editor and seems each time trees are drawn in a different, random posiition, within the same terrain tile. Could it be possible that the data on the host is calculated based on host visuals and the guest recieves these calculations but with tree positions portrayed differently in his PC? In other words the host sees the "real" tree positions but guest sees a different version, as drawn by his pc. Differences are within same tile but it can produce significant difference in LOS/LOF that in the right arrangment. Has anyone else noticed this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 I did some testing with a buddy and we took these screens: Its obvious that tree trunks are placed differently (at least visually) in guest's PC. That can lead to some trouble with LOS/LOF as only the host sees the "real trees". My opponent complained about weird targeting issues where apparently he did have clear LOF. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GI Adelscott Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 It's not a just multiplayer problem. I think every single tile with trees can change a bit for every time the game load an especific file. In the pictures above its obvious that they have changed their position but the number of trees are the same. I suppose the trees haven`t an especific position in tiles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocken Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 tic tac tic tac tic tac tic tac... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 It's not a just multiplayer problem. I think every single tile with trees can change a bit for every time the game load an especific file Yes but this doesnt matter in single player because you only have one version. In multiplayer, each player sees a different terrain because graphics are loaded seperately one each pc and this shouldnt be the case with trees. Possibly it affects PBEM too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 Can this be fixed with a minor tweak? So as the system makes sure trees are drawn identical on each pc? Sometimes it can really make a difference in tank vs tank fighting. In the sherman pic guest thinks that his tank is covered by a dense treeline while in reality there is only one tree infront of him. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoex Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 If this is what it looks like, then it's not a bug but a very serious design flaw, I would say. Don't want to jump to too many conclusions, but at best it would defeat the WYSIWYG principle for at least one of the players in PvP, and probably reciprocality of LOS/LOF, too. At worst, if it also is true that every loading of a map creates a totally new scatter of trees (though the same number), it would completely defeat individual tree modelling for purposes of map design as well. Besides, if I have to leave a battle for RL reasons and when I reload it, every tree is in a different place, it opens another can of worms altogether. Changes the dynamics of every ongoing firefight with trees involved... This really needs to be closely inspected and tested, could be a really really big problem in my eyes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltorrente Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Oh boy - this isn't good.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herr_oberst Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Does the view through the trees remain consistent for a given player across loading? If so, it might be a one time 'orientation' or 'rendering' issue (i.e., does the game save the positioning of the trees for a given player view). If so, then that would just be additional data that needs to go into the save file / pbem file. If it changes each loading for every player, that has other implications (the view you had when you issued order may not be the view used when the engine calcs its results)... most unfortunate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Stoex, I though the same as you when I first read Mr. Baba's posts. On first sight it all looks a tad fundamental with some nasty consequences. I am sure there will be some grown-ups along soon to explain it though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoex Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I've just been out walking my dog and couldn't stop thinking about this. I'm not usually the one to test such things (being lazy and all that), but when I came back I ran a few short tests in single player mode and the results are not quite what I expected, but still interesting. However, my girlfriend awaits me in bed and I just don't have time to post my results with pics now (also I haven't done enough tests to satisfy my curiosity just yet, particularly in multiplayer mode), so I will come back tomorrow and let you all know what I've found. If someone beats me to it in the meantime, fine . I'll leave you with the cliffhanger that there appears to be fascinating stuff to be seen, though . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Your pleas have been heard by he who is on high. He who lives in a jar has done something with a series of 1's and 0's. Ironwood forests should no longer be mobile. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogsfriend Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Stoex, just to be clear, you did mean the results and pics from your tests, rather than.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Well, he did throw down that "multiplayer" comment coupled with trying to "satisfy his curiosity". Pictures, or it didn't happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herr_oberst Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I've just been ... thinking about this. I'm not usually ... lazy ... but ... I ran a few short tests in single player mode and ... my girlfriend awaits me in bed ... I haven't done enough ... to satisfy my curiosity ..., particularly in multiplayer mode ... there appears to be fascinating stuff to be seen ... There, fixed that post for ya... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WineCape Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 As stated by c3k, BFC has recently looked at tree placement and fixed it: trees remains precisely consistent in placement each time you load/play a particular scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoex Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Great news - although there is a good side and a bad side to it, as well as a question and a separate issue which I found and will take up in another thread because I think it is not directly related to this... The good side is, it's being fixed in the patch, whenever that is. The bad side is, there's no point now in showing you all the great stuff I did while satisfying my curiosity in multiplayer mode with my girlfriend in bed. Too bad for you guys... The question is: Does this fix apply to multiplayer as well, as per the OP? Winecape says it applies to 'each time you load/play a scenario', but that doesn't really answer the OP's issue with shifting trees in MP. I expect the fix will remedy that issue also, but I just want to be sure. For the other issue, I just started this thread here. There are pictures, but not of my girlfriend or my 'curiosity'! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted June 24, 2011 Author Share Posted June 24, 2011 The question is: Does this fix apply to multiplayer as well, as per the OP? Winecape says it applies to 'each time you load/play a scenario', but that doesn't really answer the OP's issue with shifting trees in MP. I expect the fix will remedy that issue also, but I just want to be sure. Well I suspect that now trees will be fixed in a permanet position as saved when making/editing the scenario in the editor. That means that anyone loading this scenario will get the "same" trees and this will cover multiplayer as well. Thanks BFC and testers! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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