Picking up a Thompson with buddy aid

[SlapHappy]

Dunno if that was the best use of an SMG, they were more about lots of rounds at a close target rather than area suppression like an LMG

That's why I mention "very close range". like when you get the drop on a MG position and want to take out the whole group at knife-fighting ranges. Or you have a line of enemy fighting from an interior wall at windows and want to hose down the group upon entering the building.

There's a reason the Thompson was called the "trench broom".

[SlapHappy]

What always irked me about Combat was that this infantry squad fought the war by itself and was never part of any platoon or company, that I could see.

In some episodes they mention being part of "Company K". I think they also reveal the infantry division, but I can't remember what it was.

[BloodyBucket]

You can just see the envy and admiration in Lt. Hanley's eyes. "Damn NCOs get the Thompson while I have to lug around this little Carbine!"

I'm curious if the ability to engage multiple short range targets is modeled. My anecdotal incidents of multiple casualties from a burst all involved targets engaged in a line.

[Magpie_Oz]

I'm curious if the ability to engage multiple short range targets is modeled. My anecdotal incidents of multiple casualties from a burst all involved targets engaged in a line.

You really fire an SMG by aim-burst-aim-burst. Pointing at one target at a time and firing a few rounds at it. Of course most of them miss and hit the blokes behind, so "Trench Broom" is more about missing what your aiming at but hitting what you are not.

[Ryujin]

I had a scout team with SMGs, cleaned out a MG42 team in seconds, very handy. There's enough dispersion to the bursts that they seem to be able to take out close groups of guys, but no sweeping bursts if that's what you mean by engaging multiple targets.

However, they do blow through the ammo waaay to fast on far targets. Would be great if they'd then pick up a rifle once they ran out, I always seem to have some out of ammo SMG guys running around with the squad. The guys with the semi autos have the opposite problem, their rate of fire is hardly better than bolt action rifles in CQB. Hopefully it'll get tweaked in the upcoming patch.

By the way that guy on the cover of the game with the Thompson looks incredibly bored. The guy behind him seems to be having a good time though .

[Vergeltungswaffe]

By the way that guy on the cover of the game with the Thompson looks incredibly bored. .

Vic Morrow was Chuck Norris before Chuck Norris was Chuck Norris.

He doesn't always use an SMG, but when he does, he uses a Thompson. Stay down, my friends...

[guachi]

I love SMGs because I have a higher chance of my units actually using up there ammo before they become a casualty. My one (1) completed PBEM had a 2-man tank hunter team net 16 casualties caused largely because they fired hundreds of rounds at the enemy. Great for suppressing a larger number of men than are in the firing unit.

[gunnergoz]

By the way that guy on the cover of the game with the Thompson looks incredibly bored. The guy behind him seems to be having a good time though .

His name was Vic Morrow and he eventually lost his head...literally; he was decapitated while filming a Viet Nam war sequence for the TV show Twilight Zone in which there was an actual accident with the Huey they were using. Morrow and two little girl actresses were killed. A lot of us remember him fondly.

[SlapHappy]

Actually, it was the Twilight Zone movie. And ironically enough, the happy guy in the back, Rick Jason committed suicide in 2000.

[Ales Dvorak]

Sad stories .... actually, real life combat ...

[Aldaros]

So, to return to the original question . . . is it intentional that buddy aid ignores "dropped" submachine guns with ammo, or is it a bug?

[BloodyBucket]

I've had pistol armed bailed tank crews scrounge SMGs, but never noticed a rifle for SMG swap.

I don't think that's a bug.

[gunnergoz]

I've had pistol armed bailed tank crews scrounge SMGs, but never noticed a rifle for SMG swap.

I don't think that's a bug.

Possibly because the tank crews are often armed with at least 1 SMG class weapon, usually a grease gun. The code may see the possibility of competence with that one weapon and lets the crews that didn't bail with one, pick up an SMG along the way.

[YankeeDog]

It shouldn't be surprising that a bailed TC member with a pistol will pick up an SMG, if given the chance. In this case, the SMG is a clear upgrade. They fire the same slug, but one is full auto with a large clip, the other is semi auto with a small clip. Which would you pick?

But, as noted, an SMG isn't necessarily better than a rifle. In some situations, it's better. In other situations, it's not. So it doesn't surprise or bother me that a soldier with a Garand is unlikely to swap for a Thompson, especially since the Thompson is a particularly short-ranged weapon, even amongst SMGs -- the .45 ACP is a slow, heavy slug with poor aerodynamics, so the bullet drops quickly as range increases.

It would be interesting to see whether German soldiers carrying a Kar98 are any more likely to pick up an MP40, given the opportunity. Here, the SMG compares a little better since the Kar98 has a smaller clip and is bolt action, and the 9mm parabellum cartridge has a little bit better ranged ballistics than the .45ACP. My SWAG without having noticed any of this in-game yet is that Landsers will still stick to their Kar98, but I'll have to watch for this.

Another interesting question is whether ammo available affects the AI's likelihood of picking up a weapon at all. As noted, SMGs tend to burn though their ammo pretty quickly, so often if a rifleman is performing buddy aid on a guy with an SMG, he may be looking at picking up a weapon with only a couple of clips of ammo left. Not such an attractive proposition. As a side note, good news is that BFC has acknowledged the issue of soldiers with SMGs wasting too much of their ammo at long range, and this should be adjusted in an upcoming patch.

[womble]

Possibly because the tank crews are often armed with at least 1 SMG class weapon, usually a grease gun. The code may see the possibility of competence with that one weapon and lets the crews that didn't bail with one, pick up an SMG along the way.

I don't think it's about competence. Pretty sure basic training would've at least let the troopers know which end the bullets came out of for all the squad's weapons, from pistol to LMG. Something like rifle grenades was perhaps a bit more of an art and I'd imagine most grunts wouldn't choose to swap their simple weapon system for one that has several separable parts in the heat of combat. I think it's probably more that the rifle is a more versatile weapon than the SMG. And the squad's more likely to have ammo for it, maybe. So it's prioritised on the loot table.

[Aldaros]

Something like rifle grenades was perhaps a bit more of an art and I'd imagine most grunts wouldn't choose to swap their simple weapon system for one that has several separable parts in the heat of combat.

The AI is very consistent in picking up dropped rifle grenade launchers. It may help that the game seems to treat it a little differently; I've seen soldiers running around with an M1 Garand with M7 and no grenade, while carrying another Garand with the M7 attached and a grenade loaded on their backs. The two weapon thing isn't consistent, though; three maps latter in the campaign (after being reinforced) my grenadiers all appeared to be carrying a single weapon.

Soldiers also consistently pick up sniper rifles dropped by dead marksmen, which IMO would be less useful than an SMG, and definitely would be harder to use (starting with the fact that the scope probably wouldn't be properly zeroed for whoever picked it up).

[Aldaros]

if a rifleman is performing buddy aid on a guy with an SMG, he may be looking at picking up a weapon with only a couple of clips of ammo left.

I've tried buddy aid on a wounded squad leader with another squad that already had 352 rounds of .45 ACP, and the soldier didn't trade his Garand for the Thompson, so I don't think it's an ammo issue.

Anyway, since it looks like BFC isn't going to chime in here one way or the other, I guess I'll just have to disagree with the claim that an SMG isn't worth trading yet another Garand for, and leave it at that.

[gunnergoz]

There seems to be a priority list that we don't know about (or at least that I'm not aware of) with respect to what will be picked up first during buddy aid. It would be really nice, BFC, if you could give us some hints about this prioritization.

[Oddball_E8]

Soldiers also consistently pick up sniper rifles dropped by dead marksmen, which IMO would be less useful than an SMG, and definitely would be harder to use (starting with the fact that the scope probably wouldn't be properly zeroed for whoever picked it up).

i dont think that would really matter to the soldier that picked it up... all he would see is a weapon with a scope whitch to him looks more "attractive" than the one he has now...

doesnt matter that he has no training in it, its more of a placebo effect (as in, cool, that gun looks to be way better than my gun)

[Hpt. Lisse]

Man, I always considered the Winchester M-97 12-gauge shotgun to be the original WWI 'trench broom', although Mr. Thompson himself did label his submachine gun a 'trench broom' weapon. Hold that trigger down & rack the slide to watch the buck shot fly...

Oh yeah, I have also tried to scavenge Thompson .45's from fallen squad leaders to no avail...

[BloodyBucket]

It's asking a lot of the AI to treat the weapons like golf clubs...."Hmmm, I have to take a 480 yard shot, I'll grab that nice scoped '03A3 Springfield. When I move to the hedgerow I expect engagements to be at putting distance, so I'll swap it for that Thompson and a bag of mags..."

Also, since we are thinking out loud about weapons scrounged from former owners, why are we assuming that they are in operable condition when found? If the late Pvt. Pixel was done in by a close artillery strike or machinegun fire while he was moving out at high port arms, his issue weapon may need some attention from the armorer before it's usable again.

[womble]

Man, I always considered the Winchester M-97 12-gauge shotgun to be the original WWI 'trench broom', although Mr. Thompson himself did label his submachine gun a 'trench broom' weapon. Hold that trigger down & rack the slide to watch the buck shot fly...

Oh yeah, I have also tried to scavenge Thompson .45's from fallen squad leaders to no avail...

Having just successfully blindsided two successive (AI) positions with 'leader' teams that included Thompsons at less than 30m, I'm impressed by the firepower, enough to think that all teams that don't include a chopper should, if the opportunity arises, grab any that they can. Hadn't seen them in quite such distinct action before, though had been on the receiving end of MP40 sickness.

[Vinnart]

I would want the guy to pick up the tommy gun. He probably has, but it does not show in weapons. You might see the medic who helped out the guy with tommy switch to it during a fight. Atleast this has been my observations in CMSF. Not sure of changes in CMBN I have not noticed this yet.

[akd]

I believe that unscoped rifles, SMGs, M1 carbines and MP44s are all "tagged" as standard rifleman weapons, not specialist weapons, so the troops see no need to switch swap one for the other. In CMSF terms, it would be like swapping an M16 for an M4 (which I don't recall ever happening).

[Hpt. Lisse]

No kidding, Womble - I'm mired in the Courage & Fortitude campaign, and am embarrassed to admit that, after 4 or 5 battles (due to my mis-management) I have a couple of solo or semi-solo squad leaders on the field. But I keep them slightly behind other squads, then use their SMG's at short range to good effect when appropriate. They do rail through the ammo when pressed, tho - where's the nearest jeep?