AAR GC Semi Final - Dragon vs Minty

[david12345]

@ Minty -

Dragon just beat the living ^$#%# out of me. Good luck, you will need it.

[Minty]

Oh we are way past luck, I need divine intervention.

So an update. End of Sept 42 and the summer campaign is coming to an end. It's been horrible for the allies as predicted although there were a few highlights. Germany took Iran but has got no further as soviets have 500,000 men dug into russian border. Indians manage to hold BP oilfields in the south though I suspect they are danger of blowing a well or two and leaking into the gulf.

Huge nazi air armada based in Finland smashed leningrad in a couple of turns and germans have advanced on smolensk. it will probably fall in the next turn or two before winter. Dragon's advance corps are trying to approach moscow and kursk but we block his path for now. Luftwaffe destroyed 2 precious USSR Tac bombers on the ground and was able to retake sevatapol. Tigers and JS1 are massing in the south for a showdown but no one has crossed the river yet. Kharkov should hold for a while. soviets are stretched but still have a mobile reserve of heavy tanks and some TAC air to keep him at bay.

China is about to fall any day down. Relentless air strikes and superhuman jap armies have ploughed through millions of chinese. Still october 42 is respectable against dragon. There is no hope for china though now and I worry a great deal about where he will deploy those crack troops. In siberia there is some fighting and russia lost a corp but hold firm still with an entrenched big scary tank. Jap air will be needed to dislodge it.

India was a bright spot. Indian Tank under Slim's command held up 6 !! heavy jap units for 3 or 4 turns. This enabled Americans to reposition and reinforce air and full indian army is in defence position across river. India still doomed but will see 43 no problem.

not much in pacific. single jap sub pings australian harbour and finds a lone USN cruiser. Aussie SF retake the easternmost city in indonesia and hold a couple of islands in solomons. still no sign of USN main fleet anywhere. Reports say axis have over 30 ships as do USN with japanese at about 15 +. when we do meet it is going to get very messy.

Japanese have swept down east coast of africa and will take pretoria any day now. in west africa the yanks and canadians are moving slowing north to casablanca with air battles against italians.

On the tech side we are both near maxed out. Both sides seem to have full inf wp 2 , AT 2 (jap AT1) , fighters at 4 and russians and germans have level 4 tanks. Russian lvl4 fighters have been a huge help and for a few turns the russians were 2 levels ahead of the germans but he quickly rolled out new fockewulfs . Without the soviet advanced air uncle joe would have fled the kremlin weeks ago. British empire troops are still using sharp spoons though as they have no access to any US tech

[Dragon99]

September 42 and the German summer campaign is coming to an end. The Japanese are about the conquest of China and bring the troops in India in the initial position to continue to move to India before.

Further conquered countries: Iran, Rhodesia and South Africa

The front line in Russia: in Leningrad on the enclosed Smolensk Kiev, Odessa to Sevastopol

[Jollyguy]

One more comment on balance. In my game with Sandy I was Allies and took a Europe first strategy. He went for the Pacific and by late 1943 or so had taken Pearl Harbor after a brief, violent clash in which his Japanese Navy came out on top. He also kept pressuring Russia and sandwiched them with the Germans pushing to the Urals and the Japanese from the east. By 1944 the Russians were clinging to life, but I had taken Spain and Portugal and took Paris… and then knocked Italy out of the war! I did this by taking Rome with a Para from Vichy after about 8 Allied carriers plastered the hell out of the poor Italian defender . He didn’t see that coming. Then I knocked another minor out with another para, I can’t remember which, it was Hungary I believe. I did this around the time that Russia was doomed to fall. I then took back Norway and took Sweden which had been neutral all this time. Long story short the Axis was able to absorb all this and his Japanese just became a monster and landed in North and South America, etc, etc., etc. Now, I committed a number of strategic mistakes, mainly by concentrating too much on taking Paris against his super experienced jets when I should have been protecting my flanks better and a bit sooner and clearly dealing with the Japanese. But imo knocking Italy and a minor out and retaking Norway and taking Sweden should have been more than just blows that are easily shaken off, even with Russia out. I even garrisoned the two Northern Russian cities with British corps in anticipation of Russia’s capitulation. I think my mistake was that still being somewhat new to SCG I had an SC 2 perspective…as there were no Japanese in SC 2! If all this had happened in SC 2 it would have been a likely Allied victory. It is now 1947 and he has taken it all back, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, Norway and Sweden, and his Japanese are all over the Americas.

So I’m still learning SCG, but on balance I believe there is a fair Axis bias. I believe this would best be addressed by slowing the Axis momentum a bit earlier in the game, as when Barbarossa and Pearl Harbor occur the Axis are in position to lay claim to a dominant geographic economic base that gives them unstoppable momentum, and the Allies have a hard time just trying to get up to speed. It could also be done in the early mid-game, perhaps give the Allies a bit more around Pearl Harbor and Barbarossa to slow the Axis down. Like I’ve said before I believe balance is not far off…but it does need to be addressed. SC 2 was perfectly balanced, and if you remember Terif had a lot to do with that, he advised Hubert on numerous occasions how to fix bugs. This followed SC 1 in which the bidding got up to about 7500 mmp for the poor Russians. So perhaps Hubert will process all these comments and do his usual magic, otherwise we may be in a bidding situation here. If nothing is done there is also the possibility that people will just stop playing and the Axis side runs out of opponents, as who would want to be the Allies when the prospect of a losing is so high? Bob

[kalkwerk2]

game is very well balanced in my opinion. the campaign you describes sounds to me like you did mistakes on a strategical level.

about the other campaigns described in this thread, a few house rules against gamey strategies should do the trick.

[Jollyguy]

I beg to differ, kalkwerk2, I've played enough head-to-head games now to spot the bias, and played plenty of SC 1 and SC 2. I'm just being forthcoming in acknowledging my mistakes but I believe there is a concensus forming on the board that there is a fair Axis bias. I'm still putting my arms around the game. But I'll tell you what, I'm very interested in testing my new strategy and could squeeze in one more game. If you've got time send an Axis first turn to: rrweeks@comcast.net

Bob

[Gronq]

Try some simple things first:

1. Reduce the power of TacAir over certain terrain.

2. Close the German Para loophole.

3. Make the US land defences at Pearl Harbour stronger.

4. Give the Russians their engineer sooner, maybe even allow for another in the build queue.

These should be very simple to implement. Any others?

[Jollyguy]

5) Give the Brits an army at Singapore and a bit more in India.

6) Allow the Brits to fund the first Free French decision much cheaper and/or give them more of an incentive to do so. Currently 400 is way too expensive and I don’t know of anyone who does it, as a potential Sea Lion is right around the corner.

7) Remove the gamey Manchester before London Sea Lion bug, and entrench the corp in Rome to remove the Italian gambit.

8) Raise the range of Allied readiness boost of dows to the Axis player.

9) An Army in the Turkish capital and a corp in the eastern city. In SC 2 it took quite the effort for the Axis to takedown Turkey, in SCG it’s a snap.

Bob

[hellraiser]

First of all, I don't really understand why paratroopers are in the game. Paras, as history shows, is a tactical tool not a strategic one and SCGC is a grand strategy game. Just remove them.

@Jolly - army in singapore - although it's nice, its usefulness is questionable - by the time Japan makes the move, they are very strong - corps, army, it doesn't really matter. Unless you can ferry the army out of singapore and employ it somewhere else.

Free french - i take them always, idk why Indeed the move is very expensive.

Manchester and Italian gambit - fully agree - but they can be agreed upon at the game start. House rules rule

The readiness issue - if i understand it correctly you want axis to be penalized for employing an overly aggressive strategy. From my experience so far, Axis doesn't need any other minor than denmark, norway and benelux pre barbarossa. So majors' readiness will be very low till very late '41 yet Germany has the cash to keep 750mpp in techs and build all tanks, corps, tacs , 2-3 extra HQs and maybe leave only 1-2 fighters unbuilt - Colin and Rambo can certify that.

I frankly see no incentive in playing an aggressive german strategy in SCGC.

I also see no incentive in Sea Lion-ing.

The ability to upgrade minors to the tech level of their parent is very powerful - and here, Germany benefits the most since she has decent sized minors at her side.

[Colin I]

Largely agree with Hellraiser.

IMHO Allies need strategic options/flexibility rather than a slight increase in strength for a fun game. I'm still experimenting with the Allies - not yet decided on balance though realize a strong Axis player is a scary thing.

But.........German aggressiveness can be FUN.

Market Garden and Crete were perhaps justifiable actions with a strategic aspect/consequence. I would reduce German paratroops to 1, lose the Italian one, and similarly cut the Allies. Also, paratroops should be subject to air intercept. But question largely is, how large a paradrop is possible if Allies or Axis gave it more resources - this is a game of what is possible not reproduction of WWII as it was, though clearly a historical outcome should be feasible.

Sealion: Agree, penalty for UK needs to larger. I believe UK does rightly lose stuff from production queue which is quite a nasty penalty but not enough. If we reduce paratroopers SeaLion becomes much harder and we should make incentive huge.

[hellraiser]

German aggro strategy is fun, sure

And, more than that, it works.

IMO, a german 'peaceful' strategy is unbeatable but the aggro one works too - Rambo played an aggressive strategy vs my allies and, despite some setbacks, he will win that game - the accumulated xp for his units is ridiculous - 4-5 stars tanks and armies - one of the advantages of an aggro strategy. Granted, my allies did not play optimally since it was my first h2h game but still he was very strong and was able to replace the losses easily.

In my ongoing game vs Colin, his axis employed an aggressive strategy and as of late '41, there is little i can do to block his advance in Russia - despite having LOTS of russian units, atm i have to play a waiting game - until allies get tacs and a good air cover, they can't do much. In this game, Axis is not in the best position since allies control north africa completely but germany has it's unique advantage of being able to apply pressure with overwhelming power in a particular place.

SO, both ways work - take the 'peaceful' approach if you want no headaches and turn the game into a cookie cutter or for some xtra fun go aggro, maybe 2-3 fancy moves and strategies , Rambo style

@Colin - Crete is actually THE example why paras can never be more than a tactical weapon. They won the battle (with heavy air support ofc) but the losses amounted to more than 40% of the troops. Actually without LW support, they would have probably lost badly. They cannot employ heavy weaponry and if the surprise effect is not fully achieved, bye bye paras. After Crete campaign, Hitler drew a 100% correct conclusion - paras are only tactical and their further employment in ww2 operations was to be tactical. Karl Student, the creator of the para units in germany, tried to prove otherwise but failed Actually after Crete, Student went to Hitler to propose a para operation in Cyprus and was rebuked rather brutally by the fuhrer.

[kalkwerk2]

I beg to differ, kalkwerk2, I've played enough head-to-head games now to spot the bias, and played plenty of SC 1 and SC 2. I'm just being forthcoming in acknowledging my mistakes but I believe there is a concensus forming on the board that there is a fair Axis bias. I'm still putting my arms around the game. But I'll tell you what, I'm very interested in testing my new strategy and could squeeze in one more game. If you've got time send an Axis first turn to: rrweeks@comcast.net

Bob

i was just referring to the games mentioned in this thread.

that said, it think its immanent there must be some kind of bias towards axis... the game lives from the concept that the allies come late, but strong, and that the axis have a fair chance of winning if they make the right decisions and have dice luck early (tech/battles). a decent player should have a good chance of reproducing historical results, and it should be difficult to get beyond that.

of course very experienced players might be able to deploy strategies after several games which have a big chance of success. but i would like to emphasize that this is only for very experienced players. for less experienced players allies are easier to win with, thats my view.

nothing stops very experienced players from using a few house rules to stop inbalance. they could be: reduced number of tacs germany is allowed to build, no upgrading of minors etc.

personally i got little time to play these days, and when i prefer nupremal mod, which rocks in multiplayer! (in nupremal mod, upgrading of minors is just 50 % efficient btw)

[Colin I]

Agree with Hellraiser but question is what if Student got his way and massive resources. Perhaps paratroopers is a technology track which might make them more specialist.

The action of hitting Crete with paratroopers and (assuming a low strength corps defending) taking 40% casualties is not completely outside the SC scale and has enough strategic significance to be desirable.

But I do agree they are massively overused in situations they would not be. I really hate their use in the face of enemy air superiority or just because a paradrop s cheaper than transporting from a friendly Norway to a friendly Denmark or whatever. Make people pay MPP for drops.....!

[Minty]

Hellraiser is right that terif certainly helped smooth the SC game and there are still a few exploitable kinks in SCGC but overall I think Kallkerk is right, it is a mostly balanced game, only really in very experienced hands can axis run away with. Dragon is doing just that though....

Rejoice, rejoice. Scratch one Japanese flattop. USN finally bring out the big guns and catch a Jap carrier in port in solomon islands.. Naval Warfare 3 battleships plus TAC air despatch it immediately. Australians take the indonesian oil and dig in.

Nov 42 and china will fall any turn now. In russia soviets destroy another German Army - ratio of losses is improving - from about 10 dead russian to 1 German in 41 to about 5 to 1 in 43 Still Stalin will have christmas in the Kremlin I think

Cheeky attempt to get some US Marines into scapa flow ends in disaster.

US air in india pounds his elite troops in burma. they hold back for now.

[Dragon99]

After the Russians have tried another desperate counter-attack where you could kill two Panther is now in good weather at the beginning of the 43 major German offensive on the Caucasus. Armored forces, infantry, supported by the Air Force was able to push far from it directly and to conquer the cities of Rostov and Kharkov. Alone in these attacks were a bomber, a fighter, a tank, a special unit, 2 corps and 5 army will be destroyed.

The total losses:

Now that China is in the January 43, it capitulated only one significant front in the Japan Basin. Our troops back here in India but only slowly but steadily. The reason for this is only here at all American troops are in use. The U.S. has probably ascended here your entire airforce.

[Minty]

Ho Ho Ho. See that map above? Take a look at that German HQ just west of Moscow. Is it just me or is keeping just a single corp (in an exposed salient) between him and my Level 4 tanks a bad idea? Splat - Dead HQ and it turns out it was a full exp Manstein as well. What a bonus. Nothing much else. India being overrun. Nothing at sea yet but I think it could get messy soon.....

[Dragon99]

The loss of men stone is high, but he sacrificed himself for the victory. And the two tank armies were destroyed beteildigten deal .... .....:-) for Him

The advance continues and both Moscow and Stalingrad are already in sight ......

In India now the onset of bad weather hampered their advance. However, only slightly ....

[Minty]

July 43 The wheat fields of the Ukraine are drenched knee deep in blood. I've never had so many units killed in such a short space of time in 8 years of plating SC. more than 25 units killed in 3 turns, many cut off out of supply... and yet.. Soviets take Turkey! Paras dropped in sweden from murmansk cutting axis ore supplying and securing the city and also Ankara although his TAC air wiped me out next turn. Russians pushed back behind Don and Voronezh will fall next turn. He seems to have pulled back from Moscow though which is odd. Stalingrad safe for a turn or two.

Axis have lost a few Panthers though and the rest are badly damaged except one super Str15 panther which I am hence forth referring to as the DEATHSTAR Most russian air intact but that may not last for long.

Overall though I'm a bit more optimistic. Americans are playing with Japs in south pacific, all minor stuff so far. No major invasion from USA in either Pacific or Atlantic. India still holds and will for a while longer. Darjeeling about to go but American air cover plus surprisingly effective Indian troops (tech 0 vs super soldier level 13 full tech japs) have fought a great defensive and tied up a lot of japanese

DEATHSTAR is a registered trademark of the Galactic Empire. Unauthorised use or reproduciton of Galactic Empire trademarks may result in destruction of your home planet

[Dragon99]

July 43

Despite rallying from the Russians, the German troops achieved a victory after another and a Russian city falls to the other Khans in German. Encouraged by these successes, the major aim of the Summer Offensive 43 is expanded. Besides Moscow, Voronezh and Stalingrad to the advance if possible to Vologda, Gorky and Kuybyshev continue. Even the conquest of the Caucasus is envisaged. The Russian Kamikaze attacks on Sweden and Turkey really only show in which desperate and hopeless situation, there is the Russian. Turkey has already conquered back and Sweden will surely follow soon. And the Americans still basks in Florida or anywhere else .....

Due to the bad weather, the further advance into India has fallen once again into a standstill. This time, however, is used for extensive reinforcements and reorganization. India will fall .... when does not matter.

[Minty]

Ho Ho ho! Dragon brings out his japanese carriers into atlantic after one of his fighters spotting my european invasion fleet. but there was no fleet just a lone transport as bait deliberately placed in sight and a sea full of level 3 US subs on silent mode. They slam into the japanese, sink a couple of escorts, sink one carrier and reduce another to a str 5. Will he stay to fight them off or retreat back into the med? where is the German fleet? US intel sees something around the English channel. Where is rest of US fleet?

Oh and my paras jump again into Stockholm and capture Sweden leaving his axis troops in Sweden out of supply

Moscow will fall but Russian reinforcements already arriving enmasee and we are digging in for the end of summer.

August 43 by the way.

[Dragon99]

August 43 and it was the first major clash of the fleets off the Spanish coast. Above all, another Japanese carrier is to be deplored:eek:, but in return was a bomber, destroy one cruiser and six U-boats.:cool:

In Sweden, marauding Russian units are on the road. Man stone, recovered from his minor injury ... The Russians had erroneously reported his death ..., has eliminated the command to those units. The conclusion of this operation is expected in September.

Moscow has seized, and another foray to the extended summer goals is no more obstacles. The last two Russian tanks just look at ..... You should look further .....

The siege of the Caucasus will close ......

In India, nothing new. Rain ........

[jon_j_rambo]

Is Dragon really Terif in disguise?

[Colin I]

I'm starting to wonder if HellRaiser is, taking my third crack at him right now........

[Jollyguy]

The thought occured to me that Dragon could be Terif, too. Both have/had .de e-mails, and both studied the heck out of the game at it's onset, down to knowing exactly where the U.S. naval units pop-up in the Pacific after DOW, to plant waiting ships outside port. And Dragon also has a Terif like knowledge of how terrain effects unit movement, and where to surrender space for time. I never studied the game to the nth degree like Terif did ahed of time, preferring to learn along the way. Terif deserved a PhD in SCology, he was Magna Cum Laude. Bob

[hellraiser]

terif writes english better than this dude