GreenAsJade Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 The problem with the level of realism of CMBN is that it takes a heck of a lot to make it "right", and when things are wrong, they are painful. In one turn just now I had these: - I asked a tank to area fire on dudes in foxholes at the other end of a street. The street has a slight rise, ever so slight, between tank and foxholes. I think that the tank commander can see the foxholes, but the gunner can't. As a result the tank opens fire and each shot hits the ground halfway to the target. No real gunner would have done that. - A couple of infantry assault into a house occupied by a couple of HMGers. They kill the first. Then one guy stands around doing nothing and the other rushes over to the opposite side an opens fire at more enemy across the street. The remainin HMG enemy dude calmly stands up, taps my guy who is firing on the shoulder then blows him away as he turns around. I think this was likely a "facing" issue. My guys ran into the house and then were looking "out the other side", ignoring what was right there with them. Sigh... GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer21 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Fog of war, try to imagine the HMG guys were out of sight behind furniture etc. It did happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7thGalaxy Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 The interior of buildings is highly abstracted - imagine lots of rooms, walls, furniture etc. I see where you're coming from on the tank issue - it is frustrating, but I think usually only happens when there is not really a clear line of sight. It could be resolved maybe by tweaking the tac AI not to continue firing if it can't target properly after a few shots. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalintc Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 - A couple of infantry assault into a house occupied by a couple of HMGers. They kill the first. Then one guy stands around doing nothing and the other rushes over to the opposite side an opens fire at more enemy across the street. The remainin HMG enemy dude calmly stands up, taps my guy who is firing on the shoulder then blows him away as he turns around. GaJ I know thats annoying mate, but I have to say the way you put that just made me fall out of my chair laughing. Its almost like a comedy sketch or a roadrunner cartoon Made my day! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted June 7, 2011 Author Share Posted June 7, 2011 Yeah, actually I gotta get off my butt, install fraps and take some vidoes... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 The frustration you feel GaJ, is nothing compared to watching my AI Plan-truppen perform like morons over and over again no matter how I direct them. The hilarious screenies notwithstanding, I use a lot of "takes" to get a plan portion to do things right most of the time. Now I know why theatre directors are all insane. "No no no! Go back and do it again! Like this! Like this!" It is a labor of love though, and I paid for the privlege of frustrating myself. Wouldn't trade it for anything. -- 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Ah feel yur pain. At the same time, though, I look at these kinds of screw-ups as compensation for the god's-eye view we're given, even with relative spotting. Omniscience isn't realistic either. Just imagine that the tank gunner kept missing not because of the game board angle but because he couldn't get the range correct for a minute. Imagine that the guys storming the house weren't ignoring the gunner but were looking for him in the wrong room. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer21 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 In one of my books there's reportage of the Germans trying to hit soviet armor at less than 1000m range and going long and short repeatedly (Tiger). Turned out their optic was loose. They kept trying though, and they were an experienced crew. Both sides do weird stuff in equal measure, so it all balances out organically. Most of the time I sit and watch in wonder that it's all AI. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted June 7, 2011 Author Share Posted June 7, 2011 Ah feel yur pain. At the same time, though, I look at these kinds of screw-ups as compensation for the god's-eye view we're given, even with relative spotting. Omniscience isn't realistic either. Just imagine that the tank gunner kept missing not because of the game board angle but because he couldn't get the range correct for a minute. Imagine that the guys storming the house weren't ignoring the gunner but were looking for him in the wrong room. The thing in the house: it's just kinda funny. I agree with the FOW explanation. The thing with the tank: it's _ludicrous_. It looks like a bug to me. This same tank that can hit an enemy tank on the move first shot at 500m hits the ground halfway to the target?? It gets worse, actually. Next turn the same tank is firing at the invincible MHG guy in the house, and instead of hitting the house, he hits the low wall in front of the house. He *cant hit the side of a house in front of him*. As I said, this looks a bug to me - one that needs to be fixed.. It looks to my uninformed eyes like the aiming is happening from a different elevation to the shooting. GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted June 7, 2011 Author Share Posted June 7, 2011 OK, back to the humour, which uncovers another possible bug: the movie of the scene I descibed above is here: Watch the HMG dude wander un-noticed up to my guy and nail him! Interestingly, what happens next I didn't notice back when I did the turn. The HMG guy takes round after round of fire from outside right to the chest, and doesn't even blink! GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 The problem with the level of realism of CMBN is that it takes a heck of a lot to make it "right", and when things are wrong, they are painful. In one turn just now I had these: - I asked a tank to area fire on dudes in foxholes at the other end of a street. The street has a slight rise, ever so slight, between tank and foxholes. I think that the tank commander can see the foxholes, but the gunner can't. As a result the tank opens fire and each shot hits the ground halfway to the target. No real gunner would have done that. - A couple of infantry assault into a house occupied by a couple of HMGers. They kill the first. Then one guy stands around doing nothing and the other rushes over to the opposite side an opens fire at more enemy across the street. The remainin HMG enemy dude calmly stands up, taps my guy who is firing on the shoulder then blows him away as he turns around. I think this was likely a "facing" issue. My guys ran into the house and then were looking "out the other side", ignoring what was right there with them. Sigh... GaJ How about sending the turn back so I can see for myself... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalintc Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 It would be interesting to see from the axis side whether the unit leader name is Norris... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Ya, the MG guy in the building thing doesn't bother me in the slightest. As noted, building interiors are abstracted and it's quite plausible for an individual soldier to find a good hiding place in a building, then pop out and shoot an enemy when the opportunity arises. I suggest reading some of the AARs from the Battle of Fallujah in particular for how this can happen. Modern U.S. infantry are generally far better trained and equipped for building clearing operations than WWII GIs were, and there were still sometimes horrible casualties taken by U.S. troops during building clearing operations despite overwhelming numbers and firepower advantage. As far as the MG team member taking "several rounds to the chest" without effect, I suspect this has to do with how the game represents abstracted cover, like heavy woods and building interiors. If I recall Steve's comments on this on the CMSF forums correctly, it goes something like this: To determine hits from small arms, the game initially the uses the actual projectile ballistic path. If this intersects with the 3D model of a pixeltruppen, then the soldier is *possibly* hit. If the soldier is in a type of terrain that gives a "cover bonus", like building or heavy woods, though, then there is an abstract "die roll" to determine if the terrain causes a round that would have otherwise hit, to miss. I actually think most types of terrain save flat pavement give at least a little "cover bonus", but it's much more significant with terrain like building interiors and heavy woods. So you will sometimes see a bullet tracer path intersect a soldier's 3D model, but the soldier won't go down. WRT the tank plowing rounds into the earth, this is actually very reminiscent of a bug from CMBB that took a while to completely fix. I haven't seen this yet in CMBN, but if this is happening again hopefully they can fix soon -- either the gunner should adjust aim, or, if he really has no chance of getting rounds to land anywhere near the target, he should figure this out after a few shots and cease fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 In one turn just now I had these: - I asked a tank to area fire on dudes in foxholes at the other end of a street. The street has a slight rise, ever so slight, between tank and foxholes. I think that the tank commander can see the foxholes, but the gunner can't. As a result the tank opens fire and each shot hits the ground halfway to the target. No real gunner would have done that. -GaJ Green, Just about a week ago the Great Tank Battles series, on the Military Channel, was about Arracourt. One US tank commander told how his tank had taken a hull down position right behind a high RR embankment. He was unbuttoned, sticking out of the turret and so of course his head was several feet higher than the gunner's and he could see panzers heaqding for their position. As the German tanks closed range, he ordered the gunner to fire...and the first shell hit the RR track rail closest to the tank. He screamed to the gunner to elevate a bit and fire again...2nd shot hit the second rail. It wasn't until the third shot that the gunner cleared the RR tracks and hit the panzer. Consider your experince based on real life events! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crushingleeek Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 lolz. one word: abstract. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker765 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Ya, the MG guy in the building thing doesn't bother me in the slightest. Did you watch the video? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Did you watch the video? Yes. Previous comments stand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackHand Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 The tank firing thing would be profoundly annoying. However, the infantry/HMG thing would be quite impressive. I could easily rationlize it as FOW and it would add to the immersion and gaming experience . . . although I would be upset over losing a soldier . . . or elated that my last remaing soldat earned his Iron Cross the hard way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 OK, back to the humour, which uncovers another possible bug: the movie of the scene I descibed above is here: Watch the HMG dude wander un-noticed up to my guy and nail him! Interestingly, what happens next I didn't notice back when I did the turn. The HMG guy takes round after round of fire from outside right to the chest, and doesn't even blink! GaJ Cool! One thing to remember is that rooms and interior walls are abstracted in CMBN, it is not one open area as it appears. Here you have 2 US soldiers charging into a house occupied by 2 german soldiers (hardly numerical superiority btw), one of each gets shot. We don't know if the 2 US soldiers could see the last german because of the interior walls, although it appears not. We also don't know if the last shots aimed at the german were being absorbed by interior walls, which appears to be the case. I dont see anything unusual in the results. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 The changes in the flooring I think indicate "rooms". Therefore the firing at the German may be seen as panicky firing in the direction of a room known to contain an enemy soldier. Not very elegant in the way it plays out on screen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 One thing's for sure: a small house in Normandy is not a wide-open empty box such as we see, and CM would be wrong to model it as such. It has hallways, interior doors, furniture, and other clutter. It's also dark, because the owners bugged out and didn't leave the lamps going. Or there may be (abstracted) civilians hiding inside, adding to the confusion. I have no problem with two soldiers walking into such a building and getting shot by one who was already there, regardless of how it looks on camera. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WineCape Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I asked a tank to area fire on dudes in foxholes at the other end of a street. The street has a slight rise, ever so slight, between tank and foxholes. I think that the tank commander can see the foxholes, but the gunner can't. As a result the tank opens fire and each shot hits the ground halfway to the target. GaJThis needs to be looked at. You still have the save file? If not, I'll devise some scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookeylou Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I noticed in my hours of playing that sometimes the willingness of a unit to do something or behave reasonable is tied to the Vet level, Leadership modifier and mindset. I was playing a user map called “counter attack Ladenstadt” and the reinforcements that came during late battle are -2 and green. Talk about NOT following orders and not shooting at enemies and retreating. Tanks that have a clear shots on tanks miss a lot. And when they see other tanks, they back up and run even though I’m telling them to target them when the other tank is flanked looking the other way. The panzerfaust teams can’t hit the broad side of a barn. All the while my veteran troopers behaved admirably. Of course when dealing with AI, there are going to be oddities But during my playtime I found The Vet Level, Leadership and mindset to heavily influence how your troopers behave. people must keep that in mind before they order a unit to take that hill. Or go head to head with a tank 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 One thing's for sure: a small house in Normandy is not a wide-open empty box such as we see, and CM would be wrong to model it as such. That's right. And certainly tufts of grass and flowers do not grow wildly in these wide-open boxes either, regardless of what you're seeing in there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 - I asked a tank to area fire on dudes in foxholes at the other end of a street. The street has a slight rise, ever so slight, between tank and foxholes. I think that the tank commander can see the foxholes, but the gunner can't. As a result the tank opens fire and each shot hits the ground halfway to the target. No real gunner would have done that. If the tank commander could see the foxholes but the main gunner couldn't then the target line should have been grey and the main gun shouldn't fire at all. So, if the line was blue then either the gunner is an idiot who can't cope with the idea of adjusting the point of aim based a the fall of his last shot (a distinct possibility as I get lots of those sorts of gunners in my Shermans), or there is a problem with the game mechanics. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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