June 6, 1944

[Mord]

It's pretty fitting and cool that we got our hands on CMBN so close to today.

Nice way to remember/celebrate the sacrifices of all involved.

Mord.

[Cymru]

Meanwhile, democratic Finland, which Stalin invaded without provocation in 1939, had taken her chances of taking back the lost territories in 1941, but the western Allies gave their pledge to this land grab, just like they let Stalin occupy Czechoslovakia later. if I'm grateful that my country resisted a foreign occupation that same year...

As far as I know Britain's declaration of war on Finland is the only time a democracy has declared war on another democracy

[wokelly]

But I find it wrong to simplify the WW2 and everything in it to a one-dimensional battle between good and evil. The US, British, Canadian, Polish, French and other Allied soldiers who died in Normandy on 6th June 1944 died for their countries, but they also died for Josif Stalin who was just as brutal as any of the Nazis, but who happened to be in war against Germany at the right time. Meanwhile, democratic Finland, which Stalin invaded without provocation in 1939, had taken her chances of taking back the lost territories in 1941, but the western Allies gave their pledge to this land grab, just like they let Stalin occupy Czechoslovakia later.

The western allies did not give their pledge to the Russian land grab of Finland, given this is your history you should know better. The Allies opposed Russia's actions in the Winter war in 1939 and were ever pondering intervention (more so to cut off the iron ore from Sweden to Germany than anything else). In 1944 Finland, regardless of reasons, was fighting on Germany's side and thus was an enemy nation, few were going to speak out on the issue when more pressing issues in regards to the future of Allied countries in Soviet liberated territories (ie Poland). Relations between Finland and the west were kept open initially, the relations with the UK was kept open until the Fins closed the British Legation (nor quite an embassy) which resulted in a termination of relations which eventually led to a declaration of war in December 1941.

Again on Czechoslovakia, the allies didn't "let" Stalin occupy any lands. In fact Czechoslovakia was not occupied after the war by the Soviets, held a democratic election but a communist coup in 1948 brought it under the iron curtain. The only land ceded to the Soviet Union was the Subcarpathian Ruthenia, a territory that was frankly in despute long before WWII, having been granted to the new country Czechoslovakia at Versailles because:

1) Hungary, one of the claimant nations, had been an enemy nation and thus was given nothing.

2) The Soviet Union, another potential claimant nation, was not liked by the west either at this time so got nothing.

3) So that left only Czechoslovakia, which had to give the region autonomy anyways since most people didn't care to be part of it.

All I'm saying is, it's not as simple as what you think. People fought in the war, some honourably, some disgraced themselves. But when we are judging them as men, it shouldn't matter if they were fighting for a 'good' cause. I refuse to accept that my ancestors were evil just because they were Finnish patriots, which seems to be your point. Meanwhile Red Army soldiers, even the commissars executing their own men, would get a free pass? Or the US and other Allied soldiers who wilfully ignored Stalin's crimes while they were assisting him?

For starters, this is a D-day thread so the Fins, the Russians and whatnot in the east has little to do with what I said. You are making an issue out of stuff that was not even referenced by me. As far as I am concerned the Soviets are not much better, but I give the soldiers more credit because they were legitimately fighting for the existence of their people. As for Allies ignoring Soviet crimes, at best you can point to Katyn, which was basically the Soviets words against the Germans and the Germans were the bad guys. While Churchill may have assumed the Soviets were to blame, they had no evidence either way. And I doubt your average allied soldier knew a thing about what was occuring in the east, let alone about red army crimes so trying to make a moral issue out of it is futile.

A recruit doesn't have a say on what their government is doing. They likely don't even understand all of its implications. And it can't be understood because historians argue about such matters even today. But what they can do is act humanely, be responsible of their own acts. War and humanity can be self-contradicting terms, so it's vague what that actually should mean. But surely, knowingly murdering people who are at your mercy is evil. If we take the acceptance of that to mean that someone is a good man, then we can say that a good man dying for a good cause is not an inch higher than a good man dying for a bad cause.

This is my problem, saying that one recruit has no say demeans those spoke out and suffered because of it. It excuses those who did not have the morale courage to speak out against a government that engaged in clearly morally dubious actions (racial laws, illegal pogroms, removal of citizens rights etc during the 30's). A small portion of the population stood against what Nazism stood for, many ended up murdered or in camps because other were willing to go along and support the government. 130,000 German Political prisoners perished under Nazi rule. Because people went along with it, the war occurred, not because the Nazi's said so. Because they allowed for the preconditions to be created by waging wars of aggression, tens of millions died. People did have a choice, many Germans made the right choice but more made the wrong choice to go along with the Nazi's.

[Anjelus]

On the other hand, at the political level the issue is different. I think we can all be grateful that the invasion on that day succeeded, as otherwise the fall of Nazism would have taken many more human lives. But mind me if I'm grateful that my country resisted a foreign occupation that same year...

I would recommend to you that you pay a visit to iTunes and download episode 27 of Dan Carlin's Hardcore History, which is the first episode of his "Ghosts of the Ostfront" series. The opening monologue is insanely captivating as he talks about the human remains still to be found today on the Russian steppe and how, in a very real sense it's a "good" thing so many ordinary Germans, who weren't different from anyone else, died and were stopped at Stalingrad, and that the bone fields serve as a monument to the misery that just one person is capable of realizing if he attains power. It's free and was mesmerising when I heard it some weeks ago.

[Magpie_Oz]

As far as I know Britain's declaration of war on Finland is the only time a democracy has declared war on another democracy

The UK Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Canada declared war on Finland on December the 7th 1941, after Finland having done so to the UK on the 6th.

There were also a round of declarations in 1942 between Thailand and the US, UK, Aus, Canada, NZ and SA. Granted Thailand is perhaps not the best example of democracy.

[TCMHQ]

I will not engange in political and/or historical discussions about events that happened a long time ago, but this thread is about D-Day and I will post two of my favorite pictures I took on Omaha Beach while I was there on vacation with my family in 2006 and 2007.

German AT muzzlebreak from Omaha Beach WN 72 now serves as trashbin.

A great symbol, isn´t it ?

On the 30th of June 2007 a French grassroot group organized a very special event on Omaha Beach to honor the American soldiers (two US veterans were also part of the ceremony and EVERYONE wanted to shake their hands).

Me and my family participated too..together with other citizens from France, Great Britain, the USA ,Germany , Russia, Italy ..only to name a few countries.

Please watch the video:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2fr6w_teaser-fwnf-france-will-never-forge_news

Kind regards

Tom

[Sergei]

The western allies did not give their pledge to the Russian land grab of Finland, given this is your history you should know better.

Eh, what made you think I was talking about Winter War? I was talking about summer 1944, of course. Not that UK changing their mind 180º makes it any better.

This is my problem, saying that one recruit has no say demeans those spoke out and suffered because of it.

Yeah, I would say that is your problem. The rest of us can appreciate them all.

[Anjelus]

A medic's account from Omaha:

[Cull]

On the 30th of June 2007 a French grassroot group organized a very special event on Omaha Beach to honor the American soldiers (two US veterans were also part of the ceremony and EVERYONE wanted to shake their hands).

Me and my family participated too..together with other citizens from France, Great Britain, the USA ,Germany , Russia, Italy ..only to name a few countries.

Please watch the video:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2fr6w_teaser-fwnf-france-will-never-forge_news

Kind regards

Tom

Not gonna lie, that video's a real tearjerker for me. Thanks.

[Magpie_Oz]

Here's my fav, me mounting an assault on Pegasus Bridge against armoured resistance, circa April 2006.

[Anjelus]

Any of you chaps know of a good resource to study d-day from the German perspective on the tactical level? I'd like to read more about how the Axis staged their defense and adapted to changing conditions throughout the day.

[wokelly]

Eh, what made you think I was talking about Winter War? I was talking about summer 1944, of course. Not that UK changing their mind 180º makes it any better.

Because Finland was a co-belligerent of Nazi Germany and at war with the UK by 1944. What exactly did the west owe Finland exactly on this issue? Maybe in 1939/40 I could see an argument being made if the west had condoned Soviet actions, they were not at war at the time.

At the Terhan conference the west did separate Finland from the Axis, did not impose the unconditional surrender ultimatum on them and did press the USSR to acknowledge Finish independence.

The rest of us can appreciate them all.

Yep everyone it entitled to their opinion.

[Waycool]

A momentous day for democracy and freedom.

Salute to all.

[sburke]

Wow what a day to finally get the new PC up and running and to activate CMBN on it. woohaa. Thank you to the Beta testers in the earlier discussions on what kind of systems you are running on. They helped a lot at figuring where I should put my money.

[CKibler]

was it just a planning fubar that that the navy didn't put some craters on the beach?

The main reason (well, according to a show I saw last night about 6 June) that the bombers didn't put craters on the beach (or KO any of the beach fortifications) was due to the heavy overcast -- which in turn caused the Navy to request that the bombers hold their bomb loads just a wee bit longer, just to be absolutely sure they were over land and not over the invasion fleet. Naturally, holding the load for just a few seconds longer when you're travelling a hundred+ MPH means being a big more off target, and all bombs well inland.

[Magpie_Oz]

"Very little went as planned during the landing at Omaha Beach. Difficulties in navigation caused the majority of landing craft to miss their targets throughout the day. The defenses were unexpectedly strong, and inflicted heavy casualties on landing US troops. Under heavy fire, the engineers struggled to clear the beach obstacles; later landings bunched up around the few channels that were cleared. Weakened by the casualties taken just in landing, the surviving assault troops could not clear the heavily defended exits off the beach. This caused further problems and consequent delays for later landings."

Not sure that there was ever an intent to crater the beach, that would have impeded the tanks. The failure of the tanks to arrive did cause major dramas but it was a litany of errors and bad luck that brought the landing unstuck.

[liquidcactus]

I purchased CMBN in early hours of June 6th without noticing untill half way through the download then thought why not play brecourt manor !

is there an omaha beach level in CMBN ?? .. wouldnt seem right if ther wasnt

[finalcut]

Also want to make a quick note to talk to some of the Men that were there,on either side of the fight.We are losing hundreds of WWII vets a day and we need to talk to them while we can and hear thier accounts first hand.Go to the local V.A.,or American legion or VFW or Nursing home in the States.Not sure where to seek out these Heroes in other Countries,but we need to listen to the stories of the Greatest Generation while we can.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

The saddest part is that we are only 2 generations away from the majority of the world's population knowing nothing about WWII.

That's why wars will never stop. People forget the true hell of it.

God bless everyone who fought, and lived or died, for freedom.

[Invader_Canuck]

The western allies did not give their pledge to the Russian land grab of Finland, given this is your history you should know better. The Allies opposed Russia's actions in the Winter war in 1939 and were ever pondering intervention (more so to cut off the iron ore from Sweden to Germany than anything else). In 1944 Finland, regardless of reasons, was fighting on Germany's side and thus was an enemy nation, few were going to speak out on the issue when more pressing issues in regards to the future of Allied countries in Soviet liberated territories (ie Poland). Relations between Finland and the west were kept open initially, the relations with the UK was kept open until the Fins closed the British Legation (nor quite an embassy) which resulted in a termination of relations which eventually led to a declaration of war in December 1941.

Again on Czechoslovakia, the allies didn't "let" Stalin occupy any lands. In fact Czechoslovakia was not occupied after the war by the Soviets, held a democratic election but a communist coup in 1948 brought it under the iron curtain. The only land ceded to the Soviet Union was the Subcarpathian Ruthenia, a territory that was frankly in despute long before WWII, having been granted to the new country Czechoslovakia at Versailles because:

1) Hungary, one of the claimant nations, had been an enemy nation and thus was given nothing.

2) The Soviet Union, another potential claimant nation, was not liked by the west either at this time so got nothing.

3) So that left only Czechoslovakia, which had to give the region autonomy anyways since most people didn't care to be part of it.

For starters, this is a D-day thread so the Fins, the Russians and whatnot in the east has little to do with what I said. You are making an issue out of stuff that was not even referenced by me. As far as I am concerned the Soviets are not much better, but I give the soldiers more credit because they were legitimately fighting for the existence of their people. As for Allies ignoring Soviet crimes, at best you can point to Katyn, which was basically the Soviets words against the Germans and the Germans were the bad guys. While Churchill may have assumed the Soviets were to blame, they had no evidence either way. And I doubt your average allied soldier knew a thing about what was occuring in the east, let alone about red army crimes so trying to make a moral issue out of it is futile.

This is my problem, saying that one recruit has no say demeans those spoke out and suffered because of it. It excuses those who did not have the morale courage to speak out against a government that engaged in clearly morally dubious actions (racial laws, illegal pogroms, removal of citizens rights etc during the 30's). A small portion of the population stood against what Nazism stood for, many ended up murdered or in camps because other were willing to go along and support the government. 130,000 German Political prisoners perished under Nazi rule. Because people went along with it, the war occurred, not because the Nazi's said so. Because they allowed for the preconditions to be created by waging wars of aggression, tens of millions died. People did have a choice, many Germans made the right choice but more made the wrong choice to go along with the Nazi's.

Your argument is a slippery slope. There was no clean war fought by any single one of the combatants. As victors we can sit from on high and pass judgement on things like war crimes. Fact is the bombing of German cities for the specific purpose of causing panic and chaos among the civilian population is a war crime as well.

Additionally, your final paragraph is fighting proven human psychology. Most people, as in the vast majority will go along with whatever the group is doing so as to not stand out. More over, Nazi Germany was a police state where public dissenters tended to vanish.

Lastly, the entire argument is anachronistic. The mentality of people at the time is not what it is today. Going to war over what we now consider stupid, petty and ultimately untenable goals is not only wrong, it can be classified by law as a crime by the international community under a number of statutes. Then, it was pretty much par for the course.

Holding leaders in different regard is one thing. Holding known politicized units in different regard is another. By Fall 1943 the Soviet Union was no longer fighting for their existence, Germany was. So are all these German lads who ended up fighting in the war from 1943 onwards, who were not involved in initiating the fight, but were now fighting because sooner rather than later their homes, their families, their wives and girlfriends would be in a very real danger, are they somehow worse than the Soviets, or Brits, or Americans or Canadians or Aussies or Kiwi's or whomever?

At the end of the day most soldiers fighting didn't really care about the ideology, they were just trying to make it from one day to the next and they were fighting because their country told them too.

[Agua]

The saddest part is that we are only 2 generations away from the majority of the world's population knowing nothing about WWII.

That's why wars will never stop. People forget the true hell of it.

God bless everyone who fought, and lived or died, for freedom.

Agreed. Wars will never stop.

[gunnersman]

Just so y'all know, you can listen to the complete NBC broadcast day of June 6, 1944 here:

http://www.archive.org/details/NBCCompleteBroadcastDDay

And CBS's coverage here:

http://www.archive.org/details/Complete_Broadcast_Day_D-Day

It's like a time machine.

Thanks Rambler!

That's surreal! Time machine indeed!