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Surprised at inaccuracy of German armor


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Are schurzen efficient against shape charge like bazzokas ? It's not clear when i look at the tank armor (for Panzer IV and stugs)

Yes, but it's only a small chance of deflecting the round.

Are shot traps modelled like in CMBO ? I think that one of my Panther in the demo was hit in the front turret and then on the top of the hull and the crew panicked and left the tank

Sure sounds like it is :D

When hull down, your silhouette is smaller so it's harder to hit you. Is it also harder to spot you ?

I'd like to know this too.

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I remember the howls of pain from rabid pro-German armor nuts when we released CMBO. How many times did I hear "I lost my Panther to a single Sherman!! The statistics say it takes 5 Shermans to take out a single Panther!!" Oh the fun and joy of having arguments like that :D I bet it was in a discussion like that where the immortal words "BTS, fix or do somefink" were first used.

That's what i love in this game. you can replay a scenario and try new tactics each time with different results.

Luck, opportunity, luck, small variations in variables, luck (did I mention luck yet?), etc. mean that no two scenarios will play exactly the same way.

Another classic "this game is broken" comment used to come from guys playing a Barkmann or Whittman scenario. "I didn't wipe out all the enemy like in real life! I parked my tank right out in the open and was destroyed instantly! This isn't right at all!!". Fun stuff :D

Are schurzen efficient against shape charge like bazzokas ? It's not clear when i look at the tank armor (for Panzer IV and stugs)

Very little effect. They were designed to defeat solid shot AT Rifles used by the Soviets, not anything else. In fact, some evidence suggests that skirt armor (in some cases) aided hollow charged weapon penetration because it made stand off distances more ideal than they otherwise would be.

Still, there is a chance that skirt armor can make a marginal angle bazooka (hollow charge) round fail to cause significant damage.

Are shot traps modelled like in CMBO ? I think that one of my Panther in the demo was hit in the front turret and then on the top of the hull and the crew panicked and left the tank

Directly simulated. Shots now ricochet based on trajectory, velocity, and angle of impact. In CMx1 a shot's hit result was more-or-less based on % chance of this or that happening. If a ricochet was the determined outcome the game would just blaze the round off the tank in some logical direction. In CMx2 if the round hits the bottom side of a Panther's mantlet, and ricochets, then it probably will penetrate the top hull. That's because CM follows the path of a shell until it is buried in the ground or flies off the map.

When hull down, your silhouette is smaller so it's harder to hit you. Is it also harder to spot you ?

Yes. This works similarly for all units, including infantry. Posture relative to intersecting terrain matters. However, there are separate factors which determine if spotting can happen at all. It works two ways, though.

An example is a tank could be hull down on the top of a very steep hill. Something at the bottom of the hill might have no chance of spotting it because it can't draw LOS to where the tank is. This also means the tank can't draw LOS to where the unit is either.

Steve

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Marders and similar are best employed as recoilless or early ATGMs, ie from the flanks in positions shielded from the frontline (side) by terrain.

I find the Marders too exposed when using them as MILAN platforms, I think it's better to deploy that ATGM launcher on ground and hide the Marder somewhere, only to pop up in case its 20mm gun is needed against infantry.

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I remember the howls of pain from rabid pro-German armor nuts when we released CMBO. How many times did I hear "I lost my Panther to a single Sherman!! The statistics say it takes 5 Shermans to take out a single Panther!!"

Fully agree Steve :-) as a CMBO veteran I loved to play the Allies. Gave me always the advantage of the underdog against the German panzers - still killed 8 King Tigers (yes I counted them all) with my Shermans and 'zooks.

It's all about tactics stupid! I would say. You have to handle those Shermans often like raw eggs and you'll become a shoot'n'scoot expert.

BTW I love CMBN - really cool stuff. And if any Panzer-Mann wants a fight - he can have a PEBM anytime.

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I find the Marders too exposed when using them as MILAN platforms, I think it's better to deploy that ATGM launcher on ground and hide the Marder somewhere, only to pop up in case its 20mm gun is needed against infantry.

Too bad we are unable to acquire PzF launchers since the last patch.

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Very little effect. They were designed to defeat solid shot AT Rifles used by the Soviets, not anything else. In fact, some evidence suggests that skirt armor (in some cases) aided hollow charged weapon penetration because it made stand off distances more ideal than they otherwise would be.

Still, there is a chance that skirt armor can make a marginal angle bazooka (hollow charge) round fail to cause significant damage.

Directly simulated. Shots now ricochet based on trajectory, velocity, and angle of impact. In CMx1 a shot's hit result was more-or-less based on % chance of this or that happening. If a ricochet was the determined outcome the game would just blaze the round off the tank in some logical direction. In CMx2 if the round hits the bottom side of a Panther's mantlet, and ricochets, then it probably will penetrate the top hull. That's because CM follows the path of a shell until it is buried in the ground or flies off the map.

Yes. This works similarly for all units, including infantry. Posture relative to intersecting terrain matters. However, there are separate factors which determine if spotting can happen at all. It works two ways, though.

An example is a tank could be hull down on the top of a very steep hill. Something at the bottom of the hill might have no chance of spotting it because it can't draw LOS to where the tank is. This also means the tank can't draw LOS to where the unit is either.

Steve

Thanks for the answer Steve.

I have seen many times in books that Germans discoverd that schurzen, designed as you said against at rifles were efficient against hollow charges.

I was disappointed in CM 1 when my tanks or Stugs were destroyed by flank shots of bazzoka or piat. Sometimes we expect results that may not be realistics because of wrong informations.

I have been playing wargames since i was a kid but i still learn new things.

In some books, infos are totally false and that's why we may say that something is wrong in the game.

Thanks for the great job all the team did and all details you put on the game.

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I remember a story about an attack of Panther of the Hitlerjugend in Normandy. They were taken by the flank by Shermans of the 10th Canadian armoured regiment with a few firefly. They destroyed 5 or 7 panthers forcing them to withdraw.

The side turret is only 45 mm thick and only 40 mm on the side of the hull.

So it's far from invicible.

Those were actually 76mm armed fireflys used in an ATG role. The 12th SS tried to steamroll a canadian position by charging with Panthers at high speed giving the fireflys perfect flank shots. One firefly fired 6 shots and knocked out 5 Panthers. The remaining Cats scooted back to their start line rather quickly. :)

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I remember this because it was a steel panthers II campaign about the hitlerjugend in Normandy. They were commanded by Von Ribbentrop.

There was 4 scenarios based on the historical battles.

And Panthers did not have good results

In the first 10 tanks destroyed in night attack.

In the second, at Norrey en Bessin 5 tanks and more in the battle of Rots where the company commander was killed.

From what i've been reading in the scenario it was by luck that the Canadians

surprised the attack on the flank.

It seems that Germans had a lack of infantry during all the counter attacks of that unit.

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Anecdotal evidence of course, I just played the closing the pocket senario from the American side. Guessing my Shermans would be ineffective from 800m at the back of the map I tried to top speed them down to the village. Based on the end of map review I lost a 75 Sherman then a 76 to Panther fire, bugger. The rest were killed in the village ineffectivily tryign to gain strikes on the panthers and marders.

In the 800m shoot out from the american side ridge line, My 76s which have similar fps to the PaK40's on the marders were achingly poor at hitting targets in treelined ridges, unfortunately the Panthers were damn accurate and I lost 3 M10's in about 1 min 20secs.

A Vet M10 babyied and therefore keyholed with directed fire Arcs brewed up a Marder then caused spalling on the exposed Panther's thinner hull nose armour (panther was pointing towards the sky), 3 more ineffective bounces from turret and glacis and a 5th round looks to have bounced off the mantle and into the driver/radio operators head. My run of luck was cut short when moving forward to gain a side angle on a imobilised Panther when the Panther from it's 11 o clock aspect spotted my M10 first ( Local spotting ahoy).

I lost all my Tank's in exchange for one Panther and one Marder. Only my vet M10 achieved hits and kills with any regularity and on the German side only panthers achieved all the kills between them. It seems with similar guns (us 76 and the german 75 L48) the accuracy is pretty poor relative to the gun optic combo of the Panther. The Panther also benefits from even if not achieving first shot or first hit will survive the majority of Shells from my 76s and 75s.

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I remember this because it was a steel panthers II campaign about the hitlerjugend in Normandy. They were commanded by Von Ribbentrop.

There was 4 scenarios based on the historical battles.

And Panthers did not have good results

In the first 10 tanks destroyed in night attack.

In the second, at Norrey en Bessin 5 tanks and more in the battle of Rots where the company commander was killed.

From what i've been reading in the scenario it was by luck that the Canadians

surprised the attack on the flank.

It seems that Germans had a lack of infantry during all the counter attacks of that unit.

The SS were notorious for driving Panzer into defensive positions/defended villages. Everything HJ did Normandy were replays of their marginal but successful tactics from the East front 42-43. Problem was Commonwealth troops had better infantry anti tank weapons at section level PIAT's coupled with the much more serious doctrinal approach Commonwealth Regt's took to consolidating ground meant HJ pissed it's panther battalion and irreplaceable infantry in poorly thought out death rides.

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