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Surprised at inaccuracy of German armor


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Had 4 Marders in what looked like hull-down positions (remind me why it's such a great thing that we can't tell anymore) firing at M10's and some shermans out in the open fields, and it seemed like a one-one kill ratio. It appears as if the US armor has an easy time to locate and kill hull-down Germans... which is... odd.

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Had 4 Marders in what looked like hull-down positions (remind me why it's such a great thing that we can't tell anymore) firing at M10's and some shermans out in the open fields, and it seemed like a one-one kill ratio. It appears as if the US armor has an easy time to locate and kill hull-down Germans... which is... odd.

Did they have the same motivational and experience level? If the answer is yes then I don't see the problem.

Marders aren't jagdpanthers and doesn't take a beating.

If they were outnumbered I'd say that they did well unless it was veterans vs recruits.

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Had 4 Marders in what looked like hull-down positions (remind me why it's such a great thing that we can't tell anymore) firing at M10's and some shermans out in the open fields, and it seemed like a one-one kill ratio. It appears as if the US armor has an easy time to locate and kill hull-down Germans... which is... odd.

It's a great thing because you can still tell by using the target tool. Try it!

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Hi Erwin,

I had the exact contrary impression.

I played the Barkmann's corner scenario and he destroyed 12 shermans during the battle with only one miss shot. 4 more shermans were destroyed by infantry, and one was abandonned.

With Stug's and Panzer IV i had very good results when tanks were hull down.

Marder are not efficient at short range because of the too thin.armor. So for those tank hunters long range and or ambush. when you move them there si a high risk to be knocked down first (happened to me in the demo)

i found some stats about probability hits evaluated by the germans :

8.8 cm pzgr 39/41: 100% hit up to 1000 m in exercice and up to 500 m in combat.

In combat at 1000 m 85 % of hit and 43 % at 2000 m. 23 % at 3000 m.

For the Panther : with Tzf 12 optics it was possible to acquire an objective at 4 000 m but after 1500 m the precision was highly degraded.

It all depends of experience of the crew and who is shooting first.

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Hi Erwin,

I had the exact contrary impression.

I played the Barkmann's corner scenario and he destroyed 12 shermans during the battle with only one miss shot. 4 more shermans were destroyed by infantry, and one was abandonned.

With Stug's and Panzer IV i had very good results when tanks were hull down.

Marder are not efficient at short range because of the too thin.armor. So for those tank hunters long range and or ambush. when you move them there si a high risk to be knocked down first (happened to me in the demo)

i found some stats about probability hits evaluated by the germans :

8.8 cm pzgr 39/41: 100% hit up to 1000 m in exercice and up to 500 m in combat.

In combat at 1000 m 85 % of hit and 43 % at 2000 m. 23 % at 3000 m.

For the Panther : with Tzf 12 optics it was possible to acquire an objective at 4 000 m but after 1500 m the precision was highly degraded.

It all depends of experience of the crew and who is shooting first.

This.

Marders and similar are best employed as recoilless or early ATGMs, ie from the flanks in positions shielded from the frontline (side) by terrain.

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Thanks for the comments. My experience was with the demo scenario, so there was no room to maneuver and range was short as you know. (My 2 Panthers bogged down before even getting anywhere useful. - Realistic? Maybe. Fun? No...)

The new opportunities of use of arty and mortars is fun however.

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I agree with you.

With the demo, i tried to move marders in hull down position in front of the U.S armor and i had bad results (All 4 knocked down).

i've been reading the thread about too accurate armor. Funny how players have different feelings about the game results.

I have seen in one week of play many different situations :

A panther crew leaving the tank after one hit, the tank was not damaged and i was able to put them back in combat, i think it was hit on the gun mask and then the shell hit the top of the hull by ricochet.

One M10 TD was hit 5 times before getting killed etc...

Compared to CMBO, i think it's not one shot one kill. I also think that heavy german tanks are very hard to destroy from the front, more than in CMBO, and i have seen shots by M10 or Sherman 76 hitting Panters or Tiger with poor results on the front armor.

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This.

Marders and similar are best employed as recoilless or early ATGMs, ie from the flanks in positions shielded from the frontline (side) by terrain.

That`s how I use all TD agaisn`t any armored vehicule...and I would say the same goes for all american armor lol.

German Med. and Heavies can move head on agaisn't ennemy armored vehicule if they are far enough (I would say further than 650-750m(76mm HVAP)) If it`s sherm. 75 facing the front I would say 500m

As far as I can say AT guns for the moment are pretty accurate for me :P

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In the first QB I played, my Shermans were hitting the German armor quite a bit but with no penetration. They hit so often but with such little effect that I thought the game didn't have the old "penetration" label anymore. Finally one round did some damage and I saw that all my previous shots were just bouncing off. After the mission ended I found out that they German tanks were Panthers and the results were probably historically sound.

In later missions I haven't had much trouble knocking out PZIVs or Marders. With the big cats I have had to learn to use bait, then strike from the side for kills - plus use lots of artillery.

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I have noticed that armor accumulate damage.

Which is strange?

The damages accumlate on tracks radio optics like in CMSF.

the armor can get fragmented and hurt or kill the crew.

Damaging tanks is another way to win. you don't have to kill the tank to disable it.

In CMSF i totally stopped 3 T62 with grenade launchers. They destroyed the tracks and optics and the tanks were so damaged that they were not able to fight.

This is why the Red Army used to shot at Tiger and Panther with every weapon from HMG to AT rifles and to guns.

After the battle of Koursk Guderian reported that the main gun of some Panther

was disabled by AT rifle hits and they had to leave the battlefield.

There are many pictures were you can see hits by at rifles close to blocks of vision or optics of heavy german tanks.

I think it's a great improvement compared to CM 1.

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My experience in that scenario was the opposite. My panthers and marders picked off all the tank destroyers and shermans off with ease. My panthers at times were one shot wonders. Their ability to locate,aim and fire was done with extraordinary speed and precision.

One of the panthers got hit several times with no or little damage. It wasn't till the end when the gun was finally damaged. By that time there wasn't much left to shoot at. No bogging problems.

My armour was so dominating in that scenario I was wondering what it would be like to play the allies in that scenario. Would you stand a chance against a one shot wonder panther.

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My armour was so dominating in that scenario I was wondering what it would be like to play the allies in that scenario. Would you stand a chance against a one shot wonder panther.

I played that battle in warrior mode against German AI and got a Major US Victory. Yes the Panthers shrugged off quiet a few hits but in the end the AI just makes too many mistakes and is not as capable as a human opponent. Play and win against a capable human opponent, then you will have something to crow about ....

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My experience in that scenario was the opposite. My panthers and marders picked off all the tank destroyers and shermans off with ease. My panthers at times were one shot wonders. Their ability to locate,aim and fire was done with extraordinary speed and precision.

One of the panthers got hit several times with no or little damage. It wasn't till the end when the gun was finally damaged. By that time there wasn't much left to shoot at. No bogging problems.

My armour was so dominating in that scenario I was wondering what it would be like to play the allies in that scenario. Would you stand a chance against a one shot wonder panther.

From a British report, the only chance to kill a Panther is from the flank or rear. " The number of case where Panther were killed by our tanks is low"

Henry johnson officer in the 66th armoured regiment " i saw them destroying our Sherman at more than 900 m but i never heard about a Sherman destoying a Panther at more than 300 m"

One Sherman gunner : "i shot 2 ap rounds and hit without result and at less than 400 m."

The only way to win is good tactics. There was a U.S. army study about 98 combat against Panters. In 84 % of the case the defender shooting first is making 4.3 x more kills than the attacker. When the attacker can fire first, in only 16% of the combat, he kills 3.6 x more tanks than the defender. The first who spots and shoot wins. So Panther had an advantage because they were defending from good position.

Sherman 76 can penetrate at Panther turret at 700 M and the Firefly at 1 300 m.

From the same study, American balistics experts said that the Panther is 1.1 x better than Sherman 76 in defense, but the same Sherman is 8.4 x more efficient than the Panther in defense.

I remember a story about an attack of Panther of the Hitlerjugend in Normandy. They were taken by the flank by Shermans of the 10th Canadian armoured regiment with a few firefly. They destroyed 5 or 7 panthers forcing them to withdraw.

The side turret is only 45 mm thick and only 40 mm on the side of the hull.

So it's far from invicible.

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I would love to see two capable human players go H2H in that scenario and then do a AAR. It would interesting to see how the Allied player would approach it.

I realize the Panther has its weak spots. You can't flank the panthers in this map if the german player keeps them on the wooded high ground.

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This game (and the solid research behind it) is going to bust a few UberPanzer fans' chops. Good. Maybe people will learn to appreciate what tactics were required by the veterans who actually did this stuff, to survive and prevail on the battlefield. Some people's concept of a "cool scenario" is nothing but a glorified shooting gallery from an impenetrable mobile pillbox. Reality was far from that. Every form of battlefield technical superiority eventually was defeated by a counter-technology or work-around technique, usually paid for in lives for each lesson learned.

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This game (and the solid research behind it) is going to bust a few UberPanzer fans' chops. Good.

Amen Brother, Amen! It never ends with the “How come my Panzerfaust fired by the 21st Panzer Field Kitchen missed the Sherman at 500 m?” or “My Panzergrenadier threw a rock at a Sherman at point plank range and missed!”

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i agree. the gruesome death of war should come across in scenarios released. for example, l need to assault this position and there is no cover. my men will die. whats the best way to go about getting it done. or just being out gunned but having to come up with new and intuitive ways to over come great odds. History books are lined with outstanding victories that should have not been.

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I've mentioned this before. I had a WeGo armor savegame saved between turns. While working on details for uniform textures I would open it/run it/close it, open/run/close, over and over. That same savegame I'd see my M10 killed first hit, or a ricochet, or a miss, or my guy get off the first shot, or smoke get popped, etc, etc. So its hard to get a clear picture of what the game is 'typically' doing just from one, or even 3-or-4 incidents.

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That's what i love in this game. you can replay a scenario and try new tactics each time with different results.

this makes me think of a discussion about flight simulators. People were talking about which airplane was the best. And this one is over modeled etc...

I had found a tutorial about air fight tactics and in fact the best pilots online did not use the best aircraft but they knew how to use their planes the best way with advantages and drawbacks and good tactics.

I would like to ask 3 simple questions :

Are schurzen efficient against shape charge like bazzokas ? It's not clear when i look at the tank armor (for Panzer IV and stugs)

Are shot traps modelled like in CMBO ? I think that one of my Panther in the demo was hit in the front turret and then on the top of the hull and the crew panicked and left the tank

When hull down, your silhouette is smaller so it's harder to hit you. Is it also harder to spot you ?

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