Heavy machine guns and suppressive fire

[CBR]

Now I might just be an ignorant armchair general but I do have the impression that HMG's (in this case MG42) don't suppress that much.

I ran a few tests on a flat map and noticed how they fired and they seemed to do only about 50 to perhaps 70 rpm. That strikes me as more typical of a LMG even though they clearly could see multiple targets.

I don't know what to expect from HMG's but from what have read so far they should suppress enemy troops more than what I see in the game.

Or am I just missing something?

[Sgt Joch]

I'm not a MG42 grog, but from what I understand, even though it could fire at 1,200 rpm, normal practice was to fire in short bursts to conserve ammo and prevent overheating of the barrel.

Regarding suppressive fire, it is more a question of range. Out past 200-300 meters, MGs are not very accurate, so you can still move troops forward with minimal casualties. Inside the 200-300 meters range, you will notice a lot more troops become pinned as they begin to take more casualties.

[Faelwolf]

That rate of fire sounds pretty low for a MG42, they average around 1200 rpm, though it is prone to overheat pretty fast on long bursts. So it's actual rate of fire would be lower overall, but not that low I don't think.

But to my knowledge, the MG42 is a light machine gun by WW2 standards, though they did make a tripod for it to be used as an emplaced gun similar to a HMG. At most so far as I know it could possibly be considered a MMG in it's tripod configuration, but it's caliber would not allow it to be a HMG. By modern standards, it probably would be considered a MMG due to it's caliber, especially when compared to things like the SAW.

The M2, in any configuration, is a HMG, and when Ma Deuce speaks, everybody listens . I would expect that it would be much more effective at suppression fire, especially against a building or hedgerow than the MG42. Basically, if the cover I have is stopping the rounds for the most part, I am not going to feel as threatened as when those big .50's come ripping through.

I am no expert on these things, though, so hopefully we can get a better answer. I don't know of any true HMG's used by the German army, though I do know they liked to make up for it now and then by using their 20mm AA guns, or the cannon on armored cars, etc. that had a decent rate of fire. I think it is due to their blitzkrieg philosophy, stay light and fast, so not much emphasis on man-carried heavy weapons.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I do agree. For the role they fill the MG42 HMG is rather conservatively fired. And an even worse offender is the water cooled M1917.

[Mistah Kurtz]

Is the gun "deployed"? Read page 87 in the manual.

Some weapons, such as, for example, medium machineguns, can be fired with- out first being deployed, but will suffer from decreased accuracy and a lower fire output.

[Magpie_Oz]

An HMG is a machine gun that fires at much longer ranges than the squad level LMG's.

At shorter ranges, up to 300 metres or so an MG delivers grazing fire, that is the bullets do not get any higher above the ground than a man is tall.

Beyond that range the bullets travel in an arc and there is a dead zone underneath the bullets. Also the bullets fall in an elliptical pattern called beaten zone.

HMG's and MMG's are weapons that have been configured to fire using this beaten zone pattern. Usually this involves a fixed tripod that holds the weapon rigid and allows it to be traversed side to side in a regular pattern that is 1 beaten zone wide. These weapons are also equipped with sights that allow "indirect" type fire. So a pattern of fire can be laid down without actually needing to aim at a target. The HMG usually has a few spare barrels available as well, unless it is a water cooled one.

In this role the gun may fire 200 to 300 rounds a minute. Firing an MG42 on pure cyclic i.e. 1200 rpm is something that is never done. A barrel needs to be changed every 200 rounds. A high rate of fire on an MG does mean a very tight beaten zone and also helps accuracy in the LMG mode.

note that "Heavy Machine Guns" are not really classified by their calibre but more by the range they are intended to fire at.

[Glukx Ouglouk]

That rate of fire sounds pretty low for a MG42, they average around 1200 rpm, though it is prone to overheat pretty fast on long bursts. So it's actual rate of fire would be lower overall, but not that low I don't think.

1200 rpm isn't anything like a practical rate of fire, it's the (average) cyclic ROF. The "Handbook on German military forces" (here, p 315) claims a practical rate of fire of 250 rpm in the LMG role and 500 rpm in the HMG role. I don't know how good a source it is though.

I am no expert on these things, though, so hopefully we can get a better answer. I don't know of any true HMG's used by the German army, though I do know they liked to make up for it now and then by using their 20mm AA guns, or the cannon on armored cars, etc. that had a decent rate of fire. I think it is due to their blitzkrieg philosophy, stay light and fast, so not much emphasis on man-carried heavy weapons.

Or it could be simply that the US .50 M2 machine gun was often supposed to be used as an antiaircraft weapon (hence the mounts on the back of many tank turrets, making them almost useless for ground use), and the Germans preferred to go with 20 mm as the smallest caliber for dedicated antiaircraft guns. My understanding is that the US army's standard HMG for ground use was the M1917, not the M2 - though the latter could of course be used in that role too.

[LemoN]

I too have the feeling that all HMG's except the M2 are a bit too conservative with their ammo.

[Faelwolf]

Like I said, I'm no expert But I am always glad to learn!

So the M2 is not a HMG because it is large caliber, it is a HMG because it's large caliber allows it to be effective at a longer range? I can see where the two go hand-in-hand, actually. This answers some things that have puzzled me a time or two (in that how does adding a mount change a LMG into a MMG, and why do they use traverse limiters) Thanks for the info, now I know!

Shouldn't MMG's and HMG's have an area fire capability in the game then, without a direct LoS? At least if they are in fixed positions, as they should then be sighted-in for certain areas I should think. I could see limiting it to a target arc or something, and perhaps losing that capability if moved after the scenario starts as it would no longer have references. Without it, game-wise how are they different than a LMG?

[Glukx Ouglouk]

I'm pretty sure the Brits did some indirect fire without line of sight with their machine guns - but I don't think other armies did it.

Game-wise, the difference should be, I think, that HMGs have better accuracy at long ranges, and a higher maximum range, than LMGs - not to mention either a higher practical rate of fire (either by being water-cooled, for the M1917, or by changing the barrel more often, for the MG 42) or a bigger caliber (for the M2).

[stone75]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N59msUnyy1g

After watching this im pretty sure i'd be suppresed by an MG42. It must have been hell.

steve

[Uedel]

Well since the MG3 of the German Army is in almost an MG42 (just 3 parts changed as far as i know resulting in a lower Cyclic RPM) i can tell you from Shooting it, that it is pretty effective Weapon, special on a Tripod or fixed mounting.

Even Brick walls get Penetrated by it, as i seen it on Live shootings with it as i participated on Shooting Ranges in Training areas.

What i really miss in CM is the short Burst fire for different Targets to fill out the suppression role as it usually shoots just on 1 Target and to seldom switches Targets in CMBN

[CBR]

Yes they were deployed. I tested both as German as well as American to check how many soldiers were cowering.

I'm sure shorter range is better but that goes both ways and, in my admittedly limited experience with quick battles, HMG's seems generally to be overwhelmed very quickly at shorter ranges, as if they simply can not deal out enough firepower against multiple targets.

But it is my understanding that HMG's could easily be deployed several hundred meters away from front positions and expected to support them. I just don't see how that is gonna give any good effect in this game if they can't deliver more firepower?

[RockinHarry]

I noticed repeatedly german squads light MG42 gunners blasting away with bursts of 6-7 rounds, even from crouching position, which is unrealistically anyway. Intervals between bursts should be probably shorter. Didn´t yet count bursts for the MG42 on tripod, but due to its role bursts should be 10 and above. The tripod allows changable settings for fire in depth and width, as well as for point targets sort of. I guess CMBN HMG42 just has a "one fits all" setting. If needed I could dig up more specific stuff from HDV130/3 and HDV 73, but that surely goes beyond what could be coded in CMBN. Same goes for ballistic (over-) shooting.

[Wiggum]

I think the problem is that you always hav to target 1 action spot for 1 minute.

So you can supress 1 squad only.

How is area fire modelled ?

It would be better if the supression effect would affect all action spots around your targeted one too.

An bipod (as LMG) you can easily fire on 3-5 targets in 1 minute with short bursts of 3-5 rounds. Although iam also only can speak about the MG3 and not the MG42...

[kulik]

Intervals between bursts should be probably shorter

...especialy for shorter ranges.

Actually the intervals should be dynamic for all the weapons.

I screamed on my monitor when i saw like mu GI's ambushed a german squad in open field and most of them got away cause my guys rested their rifles after each shot. FFS those garands are semiauto don't lower the gun until you hear the ping!

...on the other hand, i admit i like the lowered lethality, it makes up for the quirks that the tac ai (or me ) sometimes makes, it makes it more forgiving imo.

[c3k]

Someone posted a stat that the daily average rounds used by MG42's was around 3,000 rounds. (Feel free to post about how that doesn't take into account all the MG42's NOT in action, etc., etc.)

If it has a cyclic rate of 1,200 rpm. Hmm, 3,000 rounds, 1,200 rpm, mmmm, that means about 2 1/2 minutes of trigger time per day in combat.

Just saying....

[Spanish Bombs]

The MG 42 issue I wonder about in this game is its use against armor. The AI seems to be very prone to opening up against Shermans, which doesn't seem particularly wise or warranted to me. I can see where it might take out an unbuttoned crew member, or cause them to take cover, but it also gives away its position when it is, by definition, within range of some HE that has a high likelihood of taking out the MG42.

I suppose this can happen on the other side as well (with American MGs), I just haven't played enough yet to get a sense of that.

[YankeeDog]

I think the problem is that you always hav to target 1 action spot for 1 minute.

So you can supress 1 squad only.

How is area fire modelled ?

It would be better if the supression effect would affect all action spots around your targeted one too.

An bipod (as LMG) you can easily fire on 3-5 targets in 1 minute with short bursts of 3-5 rounds. Although iam also only can speak about the MG3 and not the MG42...

The fire from Area Fire orders is already spread out over more than 1 action spot. I don't think BFC has ever officially stated the exact extent of the spread (and it may very with weapon & range), but it's at least the immediately adjacent action spots. So Area Fire will hit at least a 24m x 24m area. Since bullet path is explicitly modeled, the suppressed zone from MG fire is actually substantially larger than this as well -- it's usually dangerous to enemy troops substantially in front of, and to a lesser extent, behind the target area.

Originally Posted by RockinHarry

Intervals between bursts should be probably shorter

...especialy for shorter ranges.

[by Kulik]Actually the intervals should be dynamic for all the weapons.

In some quick tests I just ran, ROF by German HMG42 teams while executing an Area Fire order does appear rise as the range gets closer, though perhaps not as much as some think it should. Note that the below figures do also include some shooting by the rifles of the ammo bearers in the team. Also note that it appears the HMG will do a belt/barrel change every 250 rounds or so, during which it will stop firing for 10-15 seconds. The figures below do not take into account this reload/barrel change time (i.e., I only counted minutes where a reload/change did not happen)

Typical ROF at 450m appears to be about 70 rpm

Typical ROF at 350m appears to be about 80 rpm.

Typical ROF at 200m appears to be about 115 rpm.

I would also note that the team leader's SMG joins in the area fire at 200m, which should be changed, IMHO. He doesn't carry that much ammo for the SMG (90 rounds) and will quickly burn through what he has doing area fire. SMG isn't going to be very effective at 200m; I wouldn't have him join in Area Fire orders until 150m, at the longest. Fire on spotted targets is another matter.

[Sgt Joch]

The SMG issue has already been noted and will be fixed. They should'nt fire past 50 meters. Right now, they engage targets up to 200-300 meters away.

[CBR]

Typical ROF at 450m appears to be about 70 rpm

OK similar to my test then and I was testing one US platoon v two HMG's at 450 to 500 meters. When I went closer to IIRC 120-150 meters the HMG's were suppressed and cut down so quickly that I could not check rpm.

[Taki]

Way to few Casualties and Supression witg HMG Fire. I played a QB against Us Forces running in the Open and they didnt go prone on 200m nor did they take any Casualties.

Should be both higher. Will they Fix it? Dunno the US-HMGs and MMGs. Same Problem there?

[Uedel]

200 meter in front of a MG 42 Walking/Running is a case for sure death tbh.

[~Viajero]

+1

HMG "seem" to be very ineffective so far, my experienced is mostly limited to the german heavy so far.

The kind of reaction I ve seen so far from BFC to these things is basically:

- Sorry, if you do not present a solid load of facts your claims are not valid and theya re just your personal "feelings".

- Further you also may need to provide some historical benchamrk to validate your claims, not just the game facts.

Fair enough. I for one do not have the time nor the will power to do as requested by BFC in other similar events, so I can only contribute with my perception of what I see in my limted gaming time.

[gunnergoz]

OTH my experience is mostly limited to observing watercooled .30's and vehicle mounted .30's and .50's and so far I see nothing to complain about. They seem to do their job well. Up close they are vicious and at distance they keep shooting until the target is down. That's all I can ask.