Combat Mission: Battle for Normandy Video AAR 3, Turn Based/WeGo

[Volodnikov]

Here's some stuff I found through Google:

Seventh Army regarded 9 July as a day of attempted breakthrough on the whole front west of the Vire. In LXXXIV Corps' zone a German counterattack was attempted west of the Pont-Hebert highway, to reduce a new penetration south of le Desert. But this effort, made by elements of the Engineer Battalion of the 2d SS Armored Division, "disintegrated under heavy artillery fire." Battle Group "Heintz," which had taken 30 percent casualties, was still in line, assisted by weak elements of the 30th Mobile Brigade. The assembly of the Panzer Lehr Division was being delayed by continuous air attacks, and there was some discussion of using the division toward Sainteny, where the situation was still serious.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/100-13/st-lo_2a.htm

The 9th ID arrived in the Taute sector, south of Carentan, on Jul 9, 1944. On Jul 11, 1944 the German Panzer Lehr Division, in the Le Desert sector hit the 9th ID but slowly advanced against determined resistance and reached the Periers-St Lo road on Jul 18, 1944, after sustaining very high casualties. At one point the 82nd AD was too spent to exploit an attack. The 9th ID moved into the positions and pushed 13 miles in two days, to be the first Allied Force to liberate the belgian town of Momignies.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_route_did_the_39th_Infantry_Regiment_take_when_it_landed_on_Utah_June_10_1944_to_get_to_Wittscheidt_October_1944_and_what_battles_and_campaigns_was_the_39th_involved_in_during_that_time_period

In the meantime, Combat Command "A" under Brigadier General Hickey had made slow progress. In the area of St. Jean de Daye, men of the command fought bitter small scale actions against parachutists and SS panzer elements. CC "A" had occupied the terrain overlooking Le Desert, in which German forces were strongly entrenched. Here, a tank scare on July 11 upset division forward elements and caused some confusion. The counterattack was thrown back after enemy paratroopers worked into division positions under a hail of automatic fire and artillery air bursts.

http://www.3ad.com/history/wwll/spearehead.west/chapters/normandy.htm

As far as I'm concerned, it's okay for it to be spelled as "Le Desert" in English.

[Zatoichi]

Say Chris said I think (There were lots of explosions) that the Pioneer Halftrack with the bridging equipment will not be available in release? Is that correct and why? Anyone know?

I'm pretty sure he said that their ability to bridge rivers etc. was not modelled, but the halftrack will still be in the game.

[Zatoichi]

I have to disagree that the movement points were "awkward", and the space wasn't really all that cramped. There was easily and entire vehicle's worth of space between the two tanks. In fact, when the orders began neither of the two vehicles was even on the road. Almost immediately upon moving, the right Panther starts doing the go-stop-go dance, as does the halftrack behind and to the left. There's about 20 meters of space between these vehicles, and the Panther is well enough ahead of the halftrack that the latter shouldn't cause concern to the former.

I could buy the excuse of "awkward move orders" or "cramped space" if the vehicles were three wide, or if one vehicle was physically blocking the other, but neither of these is the case. If this isn't a bug, it's poor AI behavior. I sincerely hope (and believe) BFC will have addressed the issue before release.

This could have been avoided if he'd put a 5 second incremental pause on the movement orders of each vehicle behind the lead, or varied his initial movement speed orders (first vehicle starts Fast, second vehicle Quick, third vehicle Move), or some combination of the above. I expect this is all old news to regular CMSF WeGoers, which tyrespawn is not - this was his first go at WeGo, and so he hadn't adjusted his RT move style.

Cramped space and multiple vehicles will require a small amount of micromanaging in WeGo to get the most effective results - I think I picked this particular skill up after about 15 minutes of playing CMSF, so I'm not unduly worried that it'll have an adverse affect on CMBN. In RT, tyrspawn could have dived in and made adjustments on the fly - the 5 second pause feature probably doesn't see much use in RT (you could just wait 5 seconds and do the move after all!)

Finally, don't forget this was still a beta version too, so I'm sure if there actually is a problem (like if the 'action area' around a vehicle is too large and has a hand causing exaggerated 'after you' syndrome) then it'll be (or has been) tweaked accordingly.

[TheVulture]

Oh ... so you know for a fact that le Desert and le Dezert are the same place?

Well, yes. I can see a "le Dezert" on maps of Normandy, but no "le Desert". The description of fighting that this scenario seems to have been based on also mentions areas around le Dezert. So, yes, le Desert is a misspelling of le Dezert, although a very natural one for an English speaker to make.

[Thin Red Line]

Well, yes. I can see a "le Dezert" on maps of Normandy, but no "le Desert". The description of fighting that this scenario seems to have been based on also mentions areas around le Dezert. So, yes, le Desert is a misspelling of le Dezert, although a very natural one for an English speaker to make.

For a french sepaker too.

There are two different places in Normandy, one called Le Désert (Calvados) South-East of St-Lô, the other Le Dézert (Manche), mid distance between Carentan and St-Lô.

[Polo]

Well JonS, actually, considering the situation of the combats, it seems quite sure that the village is "Le Dézert", it matches the environment.

I don't really know about the place, I just remembered the excellent "Lehr's Left Hook at Caplainerie" CMAK scenario.

http://www.normandie44lamemoire.com/versionanglaise/fichesvillesus/ledezertus2.html

Well, I would have preferred some comments about my second point actually. We in fact we don't care too much about a village name which spelling was probably anyway a misspelling of "Le désert". (the desert)

Edit/Delete Message

[JonS]

You're off to a cracking start with your first two posts, bro.

You hadn't considered that the battle might be semi-historical, based on - but not a slavish recreation of - the battle at le Dezert? le Desert is a fictional name, just like the battle.

As for your second point ... meh Some maps are big. Some maps are small. Some maps are medium. This is not a slavish recreation of the battle at le Dezert. The close encounter in the smoke has nothing to do with the map size.

[Moosegum]

Great video!

I noticed that the pioneers, upon breaching the hedgerow, proceeds to run blindly through it.

Is it possible to direct a platioon to breach a wall/hedgerow/whatever without running through the hole directly afterwards?

[stikkypixie]

Great video!

I noticed that the pioneers, upon breaching the hedgerow, proceeds to run blindly through it.

Is it possible to direct a platioon to breach a wall/hedgerow/whatever without running through the hole directly afterwards?

Yes, if you put the breach waypoint just in front of the wall/hedgerow.

[GreenAsJade]

The Youtube videos were wonderful, but I think they show actually how badly "overdone" the suspension modelling is.

In each youtube video, the tank "lurches" once as it changes acceleration, but I never saw the tank bouncing back and forwards on its haunches like we see in the AAR videos. That "silly' look is worse than no modelling of this at all, IMHO. Real tanks, at least from the totally limited view that the two youtubes show us, appear to have well damped suspension, unlike CMBN tanks that we see in the AAR...

Of course, I'd much rather have the game release with underdamped suspension than have them hold it up to fix it OTOH I would much rather have had the game sooner without any suspension modelling... kinda candy, really?

GaJ

[Mattias]

About the Jazzing Panthers:

Looking at the video AAR I got the impression that the "collision avoidance pause" automatically imposed by the game (which throughout CM and CM:SF has been four or five seconds) has been reduced to one second, causing this erratic start-stop behavior. If this is the case then this looks like a test version of some kind. Personally I have never been bothered by the 4-5 second delays in CM and CM:SF since they seemed reasonable enough and solved most of the congestion problems. A one second delay on the other hand seems to be an inferior solution.

/M

[Sgt Schultz]

I found it amusing myself. It reminded me of rush hour traffic. I was waiting for some beeping horn .wavs to start sounding.

Road rage in a Panther would be a sight to see.

Now that is an idea for a Blue vs Blue scenario...

"Road Rage" ... Two german panzer Cos from different Divisions need to access the same crossroads. Both have Fuhrer Orders to reach their destinations "at all costs".

A dozen or so trucks piled up in a mess and then the Tigers and Panthers show to clean up the mess and clear the road.

[MikeyD]

Say Chris said I think (There were lots of explosions) that the Pioneer Halftrack with the bridging equipment will not be available in release? Is that correct and why? Anyone know?

That bridging section on the vehicle is only long enough to bridge a mud puddle and only weight rated for a light truck to cross. In other words its utility in the game is pretty much zero. If the game still had CMSF-style ditches the bridging section might be able to bridge that gap.

[Nidan1]

That bridging section on the vehicle is only long enough to bridge a mud puddle and only weight rated for a light truck to cross. In other words its utility in the game is pretty much zero. If the game still had CMSF-style ditches the bridging section might be able to bridge that gap.

Still the assault bridge sections mounted on the vehicle, whether they are functional in the game or not, will visually designate the HT as an SdkFz 251-7 pioneerpanzerwagon, and you will know that there are German engineers out there if you are playing as US.

Adds a bit more realism to the game I think.

[Battlefront.com]

Originally we were NOT going to have the bridge on the 251/7 because it serves no significant functional purpose (i.e. it can't be deployed). However, it does allow it to be distinguished from the 251/1. This is actually more important for the Germans than the Allies since the 251/7 has a reduced passenger capacity. So either we have two vehicles that looked identical, but have two different passenger capacities, or we have the two unique looking vehicles and everything is crystal clear.

Steve

[Moosegum]

Another small question:

In the video a german platoon is ordered to move through a hedge/bush (not a full hedgerow as far as I can see) during the next turn, but as the turn starts the platoon decides it cannot go through the hedge and takes a long, potentially deadly detour to get to the destination.

Is there some way to find out whether a unit can pass through certain terrain, i.e. bushes, hedges etc. before you order them to move?

[Barticus]

Another small question:

In the video a german platoon is ordered to move through a hedge/bush (not a full hedgerow as far as I can see) during the next turn, but as the turn starts the platoon decides it cannot go through the hedge and takes a long, potentially deadly detour to get to the destination.

Is there some way to find out whether a unit can pass through certain terrain, i.e. bushes, hedges etc. before you order them to move?

In CMSF I select the unit and run the cursor over the terrain path I want them to use. The pointer will change to a 'prohibited' icon if passage is blocked. At least, that's the best I have been able to find.

B

[McTasty]

Just another link regarding the tank suspension discussion. I shot this with my phone at Tankfest 2008.

[LeeW]

I can't find the post right now, but somebody mentioned that the half tracks were not moved up to use their firepower in this QB.

I've done this in game before, but really were the MG's on the tracks used as part of the planned attacks and defense in conjunction with the troops?? or was the MG used for it's own defense mostly??

[ClarkWGriswold]

I don't know how it was done historically, but if I've got a few extra machineguns sitting on the battlefield, I'm damn well going to do what I can to use them!

[Dadekster88]

I would say it depends strongly on the situation and what you're facing. As for SOP I have no idea how the various armies viewed the use of halftracks or personel carriers in battle in WW2.

[dieseltaylor]

In general a good idea but where a defence has all the hedge-lines zeroed in for mortar fire and the fields are small it would be fairly fatal I suspect.

Firing from a mile away from an area without defining features is a much better idea : )

[Pvt. Ryan]

Is there some way to find out whether a unit can pass through certain terrain, i.e. bushes, hedges etc. before you order them to move?

It might take a little practice, but I think you will eventually learn what is passable terrain and what isn't.

[Rocky Balboa]

Another small question:

In the video a german platoon is ordered to move through a hedge/bush (not a full hedgerow as far as I can see) during the next turn, but as the turn starts the platoon decides it cannot go through the hedge and takes a long, potentially deadly detour to get to the destination.

Is there some way to find out whether a unit can pass through certain terrain, i.e. bushes, hedges etc. before you order them to move?

This for me is the fundamental difference in the 2 styles of play. Some players just want to give general orders and leave it up to the AI to decide the best way to get there. Others like to micromanage and tell a unit exactly how to get to there destination including every turn and even what door to enter through.

The former style is more prevalent with the RT crowd as they don't have time to micromanage. Some also believe this is a more realistic way to give orders. Early in CMx2 the tact AI handled this very poorly (IMO) recently however, the AI is better able to select a very suitable path though not always what you might expect.

The later style is more prevalent with the WEGO'ers as we like to tell our squads exactly which way to go and exactly what to do. This usually leads to some complicated move orders filled with lots of waypoints.

The great thing about the CMx2 engine is that you can feel free to mix and match each command style. I primarily play WEGO but I find myself issuing more general orders now because I'm more confident that the AI will make the right choices.

One thing that will be interesting to see is if the AI can be tweaked (in later games) to simulate less experienced squads/units. For example, as the experience level of a unit decreases then there will be an increased chance that the AI will do something totally unexpected. This would require a commander to micromanage his inexperienced troops in a more realistic manner while feeling confident that he can issue more general orders to his more experienced troops. This puts a whole new meaning to the term "Herding Cats"

[tyrspawn]

I don't know how it was done historically, but if I've got a few extra machineguns sitting on the battlefield, I'm damn well going to do what I can to use them!

Attaching an urban center with mechanized forces/vehicles is about the most stupid thing you can do tactically speaking.