Grenades and Fausts (oh my)

[Claymore]

Sweeping together a number of questions I have into one thread

1. Grenade types - are both the fragmentation and concussion versions modeled in CMBN? The US and Germans certainly used both during the CMBN timeframe.

The range of the German offensive concussive grenades was about twice (30m) that of the allied fragmentation weapons, while the lethality zone was about half(7m radius).

Are the actual types book kept separately in CMBN or is there an "averaged" grenade model employed by the CMx2 engine? With the level of detail applied to so many other weapon systems I hope that these are not treated as afterthoughts.

2. The Panzerfaust (Model 30 until 09/1944) was rightly feared by both armour and infantry during the Normandy campaign. Although there were no fragmentation warheads until later in the war, the Faust'30 carried 800g (TNT:RDX @ 50:50). For a commonly used weapon this charge weighed many times more than that carried in the TOC fragmentation grenades [uS Mk2 (57g TNT or black powder), UK Mills (85g Amatol)) Even the German concussive

Model 43 grenade carried only 170g [Nipolit- approx equal mix of NC/DEGN/PETN]. I shudder to think how much the guy using the Faust had his bells rung when this thing went off only 30m away. With the grenades SOP was "chuck and cover", but the deliberate action of aiming and likely watching the Faust fly its trajectory meant the user was viscerally tied to the explosion. How is does CMBN model the anti-personnel/blast effects of the Faust'30?

3. Can allied soldiers pick up discarded/dropped Panzerfaust weapons and use them themselves? I've heard/seen anecdotal reports where allied soldiers did just that

[e.g.

] and that the Americans later even taught the soldiers how to use them

[e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v8yXpNPDpc&feature=related]

Cheers

MRD

[Claymore]

Seems like I'm going for a record on these boards. My threads are consistently getting the lowest response to viewing ratio.

Just a little calculation to get people thinking.

In the case of the Panzerfaust 30, the 0.8 kg (TNT:RDX @ 50:50) will yield a dynamic overpressure response:

Distance Dynamic Pressure

(feet) (kg/cm2)

1.0 ---------- 442

2.0 ---------- 128

2.4 ---------- 85

2.8 ---------- 52

3.2 ---------- 33

3.6 ---------- 22

4.0 ---------- 15

5.0 ---------- 6.7

6.0 ---------- 3.3

8.0 ---------- 1.1

10 ---------- 0.4

12 ---------- 0.2

14 ---------- 0.1

(this is from various sources but all are rooted in Sadovsky's formulas for blast pressures, shock velocities, temperature, duration etc...)

This is for a charge exploded at the surface without any nearby walls or structures. If the unfortunate human is near (<3 feet) a wall or within a confined space (e.g. room) then the overpressures are magnified dramatically. I'll save that for another post, so let's just consider the easiest case first.

Damage is a function of both dynamic pressure and duration, but as a first approximation blast injuries follow:

delta P > 26 kg/cm2. Instant death, full body disintegration.

delta P > 8 kg/cm2. Instant death, violent projection of body, disintegration of body parts.

delta P > 5 kg/cm2. Fatal injuries with 99% chance of lethal outcome.

delta P > 3.8 kg/cm2. 75% chance of fatality. Major limb and torso injuries.

delta P > 2.5 kg/cm2. 10% risk of fatality. Major limb injuries.

delta P > 2.1 kg/cm2. Non-fatal injuries.

delta P > 1.6 kg/cm2. Disruption of neural system / loss of consciousness.

delta P > 1.1 kg/cm2. Rupture of tympanic membranes for average human.

delta P > 0.35 kg/cm2. Minimal distance of possible rupture of tympanic membranes

Where 1 kg/cm2 ~ 1 atm = 14.7 psi

(various sources e.g. Technical Progress Report, DASA-2113)

Due to the very thin metal wall surrounding the Panzerfaust 30 explosive charge and its extreme brisance, we can safely relegate the danger of fragments to a second order effect. This assumption is grounded in reality as many weapons systems which try to enhance fragmentation use explosive charges with very low detonation velocity. (E.g. US Mk2 which switched from flake TNT to black powder)

Although the US Mk48 75mm HE shell also has about the same quantity of explosives, the shell fragments are non negligible. Something left to a future analysis.

So what does this all mean...

Without any argument, prevarication, or dissembling, if you are standing or kneeling within 7 feet of a Panzerfaust when it detonates your mortal being will become a fine red mist or a casualty completely out of combat.

How does this compare to the CMx2 engine's results?

As I mentioned above, the lethality of a blast when within a building is even greater. This should be something that the CMx2 engine should handle as well.

If the unfortunate human is crouched behind a wall or in a foxhole, the diffraction effects of the blast wave are still calculable but I would imagine this would be beyond the CMx2 engine's capabilities. What will be interesting is the "fudge factor" that the CMx2 engine does apply in these cases.

Finally, since the only threads that seem to get attention are those in the "eye candy" category, I believe that there are completely unacceptable errors: :mad: the Faust conical head is incorrectly modeled :mad:, is the wrong color scheme :mad:, is missing the graphical text :mad:, and the sighting guide is 1cm too long.

Oh where have all the grogs from CMBO gone?

Cheers

MRD

[Peregrine]

Oh where have all the grogs from CMBO gone?

MRD

They have all finally come around to realtime over boardgames and play nothing but Starcraft II now.

[MikeyD]

the Faust conical head is incorrectly modeled

Both the Panzerfaust 30 and Panzerfaust 30K are modeled in the game and are modeled correctly. By the Market Garden there will be an entirely new model for the panzerfaust 60. I'm not sure about the introduction date of the Panzerfaust 100 but that's ready to go when the time is right.

Bear in mind most of what you're talking about is entirely under the hood. Only Charles knows what's going on, though in most cases it usually turns out that more is going on under the hood than anyone expected. The Beta guys know as much about dynamic overpressure response as the soldier boys firing the thing in 1944 did so we're no help in that regard.

[Claymore]

Both the Panzerfaust 30 and Panzerfaust 30K are modeled in the game and are modeled correctly. By the Market Garden there will be an entirely new model for the panzerfaust 60. I'm not sure about the introduction date of the Panzerfaust 100 but that's ready to go when the time is right.

You fell for my evil trap MikeyD:p I finally got a response and it was about the eye candy comments which I thought were clearly labeled with the sarcasm tag.

What a beta test can say (if not covered by confidentiality clauses which would be very odd) is:

1. are the blast effects on personnel are anywhere near what I calculated?

2. the original questions regarding grenades

3. the original questions regarding the allies using discarded Fausts

Cheers

MRD

[ChrisND]

3. the original questions regarding the allies using discarded Fausts

No to this. Soldiers in the game will never pick up or use enemy equipment.

[Claymore]

No to this. Soldiers in the game will never pick up or use enemy equipment.

Is your comment based on beta CMBN testing or from CMSF? I have not heard of any anecdotal, official, or rumor based stories of American soldiers using RPGs in any conflict they've been used in (Vietnam or later). There is however evidence (see OP) regarding the allies using Fausts in WWII.

[ChrisND]

Is your comment based on beta CMBN testing or from CMSF? I have not heard of any anecdotal, official, or rumor based stories of American soldiers using RPGs in any conflict they've been used in (Vietnam or later). There is however evidence (see OP) regarding the allies using Fausts in WWII.

Both. And it will take more than a couple of anecdotes to convince me that it was widespread enough to be worth considering having soldiers picking up enemy weapons and using them on the battlefield. When they did get used, wasn't it the case that they were taken and then (maybe) distributed, and not used right on the battlefield?

[Broadsword56]

Also, there was always the good possibility that an enemy weapon (or any other tempting souvenir for a GI) might be booby-trapped. So the smart soldier would avoid picking it up unless he knew for sure.

[Claymore]

Also, there was always the good possibility that an enemy weapon (or any other tempting souvenir for a GI) might be booby-trapped. So the smart soldier would avoid picking it up unless he knew for sure.

No argument here, as long as that was BFC's original intent in excluding the use of expedient weaponry.

Both the Eihandgranate and Stielhandgranate had provision for the installation of zero-delay fuses. The grenade, thus equipped, could either be left on the battlefield as a unwelcome easter egg or used in a field-expedient booby trap (e.g. trip wire).

I have not seen in any of the literature the provision for Fausts being so equipped. Booby trapped using other methods (e.g. trip wire) but not as an integral part of the Faust structure.

Cheers

MRD

[YankeeDog]

Your analysis of the Panzerfaust warhead blast radius appears to ignore the fact that it's a HEAT warhead. It's been a while since I read up on it, but IIRC the lethal blast radius of a HEAT warhead is substantially smaller in most directions than for a HE warhead of similar composition and weight, due to the fact that a large amount of the explosive energy is projected forward and into the impact surface in the form of the penetration jet.

[Sergei]

I learned from playing Call of Duty that the standard method of destroying German tanks was to use Panzerfausts/schrecks stolen from German infantry. In game design, especially when trying to achieve maximum realism, you must consider the possible effects of every planned feature. If you could for example take Panzerfausts from dead Germans, could it lead into the Allied player picking up every single Panzerfaust that he can loot? If it could, it would drastically alter the balance and divert from reality.

...it'd be pretty damn funny if in CMSF the Red player could rob Javelins from enemy bodies and then use them against M1A2's, though! Imagine the look on the Blue player's face

[sburke]

Both. And it will take more than a couple of anecdotes to convince me that it was widespread enough to be worth considering having soldiers picking up enemy weapons and using them on the battlefield. When they did get used, wasn't it the case that they were taken and then (maybe) distributed, and not used right on the battlefield?

The only significant incident I have heard of was Tucker's forces from the 504th Para Reg in the attack on Cheneux supposedly distributed some panzerfausts. Whether they were used at all and with any effectiveness, I have not seen any record. None of the histories I have even mention it. I think in fact the only place I heard it was an ASL scenario.

[Magpie_Oz]

I'd think that picking up and using enemy weapons was an activity fraught with far to many dangers to become a viable option for your average soldier.

Of course what ever you pick up might be booby trapped.

you would have no idea how it works, it is unlikely that you would have been instructed on it, this would be especially so for the Panzerfaust.

Another factor is that if you are firing it you tend to sound like the enemy so might attract unwanted attention, this is particularly so in the case of enemy MG's.

You could be putting yourself in danger visually, something like a Panzerfaust has a distinctive shape and seen at a distance ... well we all know only the Germans carry Panzerfausts.

In a lot of cases you are carrying a butt load of stuff to begin with so the last thing you want to do is pick up more things to carry, regardless of what advantages it might bring.

[Michael Emrys]

I know of no cases of PFs being picked up on the battlefield and used immediately. However, General James Gavin in his memoir stated that a warehouse of liberated PFs came into the possession of the 82nd Airborne who used them during the Battle of the Bulge. If BFC decides to make a special provision allowing 82nd. Airborne troopers (only) to begin a game set in the BotB period with PFs, that's their little red wagon.

Michael

[MikeyD]

In the book "Death Traps" I recall Cooper mention that Fausts were popular scrounged items and that he liked to keep one or two in the back of his jeep, himself. That being said, he had no anecdotes about them actually being used to good effect, no German tanks knocked out by Faust-wielding Americans. Plus, judging from photos I've seen of American troops carrying Fausts they look like rather cumbersome things to carry around. Like having to carry two rifles.

[Claymore]

Both. And it will take more than a couple of anecdotes to convince me that it was widespread enough to be worth considering having soldiers picking up enemy weapons and using them on the battlefield. When they did get used, wasn't it the case that they were taken and then (maybe) distributed, and not used right on the battlefield?

A few anecdotes...

More Than Courage: Sicily, Naples-Foggia, Anzio, Rhineland, Ardennes-Alsace

“The German Panzerfaust was a tremendously more potent weapon than the U.S. bazooka and consequently had become almost a standard item of issue in the regiment. Men were regularly trained in its use, with the result it had become a valued assault weapon.”

History of the 517th Regimental Parachute Combat Team

“The 325th jumped off that morning all right and as they moved forward we saw many of them carrying the German Panzerfaust”

All American, All the Way: A combat history of the 82nd Airborne

“While receiving replacements and being re-equipped and reorganized the division concentrated on training in combined tank-infantry tactics and the use of the German Panzerfaust”

The Battalion: the dramatic story of the 2nd Ranger Battalion

“ On July 19th the 15th Cavalry Reconnaissance Group relieved the Rangers and battalion training was resumed. Lt. Page was demonstrating to the troops how to load and fire a German shoulder-fired recoilless rocket launcher called a Panzerfaust, when the weapon exploded in Page’s hands, killing him instantly.”

D-Day: The Invasion of Normandy

“Colonel James Gavin, commander of the 505th Parachute Infantry, compared the two weapons while in Sicily in 1943: As for the 82nd Airborne Division it did not get adequate anti-tank weapons until it began to capture the first German Panzerfausts. By the fall of 1944 we had truckloads of them.”

United States Vs. German Equipment

Edwin Reeg, Platoon Leader “The weapon is accurate and easy to fire and the effect is excellent against the front armor of both Mark Vs and the Panther self-propelled gun….only one dud occurred in forty-five rounds fired”

“an effective and simple weapon to operate….we habitually carry them on vehicles”

Nudge Blue: A Rifleman’s Chronicle of WWII

“several weeks previously, the 9th Division had a special school that lasted a few hours for non-coms from each company on the use of the German Panzerfaust”

“The object of the orientation course was to make it possible for American troops to utilize Panzerfausts that had been left behind. I enjoyed firing them and was very eager to take advantage of the opportunity whenever they were available.”

All the Way to Berlin: A Paratrooper at War in Europe

“Shortly after the Waal River crossing, the 504th captured a truckload of German panzerfausts….We issued a limited number …”

Steeds of Steel: A History of American Mechanized Cavalry in World War II

Medal of Honor Citation for Lt. Dan Lee

“He killed five of the enemy with rifle fire…..Fired on by an armored car he took cover behind the German half-track and there found a panzerfaust with which to neutralize this threat”

Cheers

MRD

[MengJiao]

A few anecdotes...

More Than Courage: Sicily, Naples-Foggia, Anzio, Rhineland, Ardennes-Alsace

“The German Panzerfaust was a tremendously more potent weapon than the U.S. bazooka and consequently had become almost a standard item of issue in the regiment. Men were regularly trained in its use, with the result it had become a valued assault weapon.”

History of the 517th Regimental Parachute Combat Team

“The 325th jumped off that morning all right and as they moved forward we saw many of them carrying the German Panzerfaust”

All American, All the Way: A combat history of the 82nd Airborne

“While receiving replacements and being re-equipped and reorganized the division concentrated on training in combined tank-infantry tactics and the use of the German Panzerfaust”

The Battalion: the dramatic story of the 2nd Ranger Battalion

“ On July 19th the 15th Cavalry Reconnaissance Group relieved the Rangers and battalion training was resumed. Lt. Page was demonstrating to the troops how to load and fire a German shoulder-fired recoilless rocket launcher called a Panzerfaust, when the weapon exploded in Page’s hands, killing him instantly.”

D-Day: The Invasion of Normandy

“Colonel James Gavin, commander of the 505th Parachute Infantry, compared the two weapons while in Sicily in 1943: As for the 82nd Airborne Division it did not get adequate anti-tank weapons until it began to capture the first German Panzerfausts. By the fall of 1944 we had truckloads of them.”

United States Vs. German Equipment

Edwin Reeg, Platoon Leader “The weapon is accurate and easy to fire and the effect is excellent against the front armor of both Mark Vs and the Panther self-propelled gun….only one dud occurred in forty-five rounds fired”

“an effective and simple weapon to operate….we habitually carry them on vehicles”

Nudge Blue: A Rifleman’s Chronicle of WWII

“several weeks previously, the 9th Division had a special school that lasted a few hours for non-coms from each company on the use of the German Panzerfaust”

“The object of the orientation course was to make it possible for American troops to utilize Panzerfausts that had been left behind. I enjoyed firing them and was very eager to take advantage of the opportunity whenever they were available.”

All the Way to Berlin: A Paratrooper at War in Europe

“Shortly after the Waal River crossing, the 504th captured a truckload of German panzerfausts….We issued a limited number …”

Steeds of Steel: A History of American Mechanized Cavalry in World War II

Medal of Honor Citation for Lt. Dan Lee

“He killed five of the enemy with rifle fire…..Fired on by an armored car he took cover behind the German half-track and there found a panzerfaust with which to neutralize this threat”

Cheers

MRD

Since the game allows blue v blue or Red v red, maybe some German infantry can take the American side to use those PZfausts?

[SKELLEN]

If BFC ever do decide to allow the option of picking up Panzerfausts in CMBN I would like to see there be a risk associated with the action i.e. Booby Trap of some kind, but it could also be random, or not as the case may be.

So all those people thinking they would be able to pick up every enemy weapon will need to think again or suffer the consequences.

[Battlefront.com]

We've been over this thousands of times before. Anecdotes are just that... an observation of something extra ordinary and therefore interesting to mention. They are exceptions, and that's the most important point.

If we introduce something into the game then it goes from exception to rule. As Sergei said, this then completely distorts and perverts the overall experience. It's like the ASL ability to spontaneously start fires. Did it happen in the thousands of small unit actions in Europe? Sure, I'd bet it did. But how frequently as a percentage? Extremely tiny.

Steve

[Claymore]

Thanks for the reply Steve. I am not demanding anything, just starting a conversation.

How about my questions regarding blast damages and grenades?

[Claymore]

Your analysis of the Panzerfaust warhead blast radius appears to ignore the fact that it's a HEAT warhead. It's been a while since I read up on it, but IIRC the lethal blast radius of a HEAT warhead is substantially smaller in most directions than for a HE warhead of similar composition and weight, due to the fact that a large amount of the explosive energy is projected forward and into the impact surface in the form of the penetration jet.

The directed portion of the blast is the collapsing wavefront that "squeezes" the liner material into a hypersonic jet. The off-axis explosion is no different to a nearby observer than if a cylindrical charge was detonated.

[YankeeDog]

Hm. I could have sworn I read something to the effect that that especially the portions of the shaped charge along the forward "walls" of the cone initially send much of their pressure & energy inward into the negative space (which, as you note, creates the hypersonic jet), rather than outward. As I recall it, this pressure and energy does get reflected back outwards because it hits the roughly equal energy coming from the other side of the cone, but overall this results in the pressure wave being of somewhat lower pressure, but longer duration, than a comparable solid cylindrical charge (and therefore less lethal).

But I can't remember where I got this... lacking source, I guess I'll have to leave it at that for now.

[Sakai007]

No argument here, as long as that was BFC's original intent in excluding the use of expedient weaponry.

Both the Eihandgranate and Stielhandgranate had provision for the installation of zero-delay fuses. The grenade, thus equipped, could either be left on the battlefield as a unwelcome easter egg or used in a field-expedient booby trap (e.g. trip wire).

I have not seen in any of the literature the provision for Fausts being so equipped. Booby trapped using other methods (e.g. trip wire) but not as an integral part of the Faust structure.

Cheers

MRD

If you look in the smart book that all US Infantry are issued upon arriving for basic training in this day and age, it shows you how to make booby traps out of grenades and claymore mines (lol, I would have said the M16 but the official claymore designation is just plain confusing since the M16 is obviously also a rifle). The next part tell the soldier to avoid picking up enemy weapons and 'trinkets' since they are most likely booby trapped. In basic, the Drills would always leave things around that were either obvious or not so obviously not supposed to be there, and the recruits job is to mark, and then report all things that seemed strange. The IED threat on the modern battlefield demands that soldiers not pick up enemy equipment, or even friendly equipment that you or your buddies didn't drop there at that very moment. Stupid kills!!!

[Claymore]

If you look in the smart book that all US Infantry are issued upon arriving for basic training in this day and age, it shows you how to make booby traps out of grenades and claymore mines (lol, I would have said the M16 but the official claymore designation is just plain confusing since the M16 is obviously also a rifle). The next part tell the soldier to avoid picking up enemy weapons and 'trinkets' since they are most likely booby trapped. In basic, the Drills would always leave things around that were either obvious or not so obviously not supposed to be there, and the recruits job is to mark, and then report all things that seemed strange. The IED threat on the modern battlefield demands that soldiers not pick up enemy equipment, or even friendly equipment that you or your buddies didn't drop there at that very moment. Stupid kills!!!

An anecdote...

On to Victory: The Canadian Liberation of the Netherlands

“Acting Sergeant Ardagh Cadieu was killed when he accidentally tripped a wire connected to a booby-trapped Panzerfaust"

Cheers

MRD