Is the Target LOS tool from waypoints too gamey ?

[noob]

I've just been using the Target LOS tool on the move waypoints and it gives you the LOS from the waypoint you are selecting, that means if you want to see what the LOS from an enemy position is you just have to put a move waypoint on it and then create a Target LOS line.

It seems bizarre that a game that strives for realism in some departments could allow such an unrealistic feature, i can't work out why it's been put in, i would like to see it removed as it basically allows a player to understand the LOS from an enemy position much too precisely.

[LongLeftFlank]

Keep in mind that just because the UNIT can't draw LOS doesn't mean that the constituent shooters all can't -- they will shoot at targets independently. I am speaking of infantry of course.

[stikkypixie]

Keep in mind that just because the UNIT can't draw LOS doesn't mean that the constituent shooters all can't -- they will shoot at targets independently. I am speaking of infantry of course.

Are you sure? I always thought it meant that no LOS whatsoever, and grey lines means that some guys might be able to shoot. Could happen though that if someone shifts around that LOS might be possible.

LOS also depends on the stance of the unit, and I don't know how that information is taken into account.

Anyway, it is a consequence of allowing stacking orders. Move to A, stay there 15s and shoot that building and reverse back, that sort of thing.

It's not that highly unrealistic because it's impossible to check the LOS from all enemy positions (unless you're really patient). Another unrealistic thing is that for every map you know exactly how many doors a particular building has, and how it is oriented.

[Euri]

Keep in mind that just because the UNIT can't draw LOS doesn't mean that the constituent shooters all can't -- they will shoot at targets independently. I am speaking of infantry of course.

this is very true

[astano]

Well, until BFC implements a system where the map is blank until your units fill it in by gaining LOS to different parts of it, we're going to have to deal with things like this.

I don't think it's unrealistic primarily because the player has to exercise such precise control over the smallest elements (individual vehicles and teams) on the battlefield. Unlike reality, you can't order your tank to move up until they can see the village from a hull-down position, or tell your infantry to shift until they can fire on a particular spot, unless you can tell before you send them there that they have LOS/LOF to what you want. And as far as determining which enemy positions can then see them back, I would hope, for example, that a real-life tank commander can determine when his tank arrives somewhere what positions can see him and adjust accordingly. To me that's another consequence of having to "think" for every element leader you have on the battlefield.

And as stikkypixie said it would be impossible to stack orders without it. Both of these are much more important if you play WEGO instead of RT.

[noob]

Well, until BFC implements a system where the map is blank until your units fill it in by gaining LOS to different parts of it, we're going to have to deal with things like this.

I don't think it's unrealistic primarily because the player has to exercise such precise control over the smallest elements (individual vehicles and teams) on the battlefield. Unlike reality, you can't order your tank to move up until they can see the village from a hull-down position, or tell your infantry to shift until they can fire on a particular spot, unless you can tell before you send them there that they have LOS/LOF to what you want. And as far as determining which enemy positions can then see them back, I would hope, for example, that a real-life tank commander can determine when his tank arrives somewhere what positions can see him and adjust accordingly. To me that's another consequence of having to "think" for every element leader you have on the battlefield.

And as stikkypixie said it would be impossible to stack orders without it. Both of these are much more important if you play WEGO instead of RT.

I understand the comments, there is always going to be an element of gameyness in a game but this is a little too gamey for my liking, and as regards stacking it surely would be possible to allow an exception to the LOS function of a Target line so that it doesnt give LOS information when being used from a waypoint but still allows that unit to fire in that position "if" it has a LOS which would be down to the players judgement, that way you would get to use multiple stacking area fire commands without it allowing you to work out enemy position LOS paths.

[Erwin]

In RL you have a much better idea of what you can see and what you can shoot at when from any point that you are at. It's hard to know that in a game.

So, I interprete it as an "evening out" of the inherent problems that being in a game creates vs RL. It's like giving the AI extra info to make it a better oppo. Esp in high cover arfeas like woods, it would take forever to find good LOS positions without the tool. So, it's rather essential for WEGO.

[noob]

In RL you have a much better idea of what you can see and what you can shoot at when from any point that you are at. It's hard to know that in a game.

Yes but in RL you cannot know a LOS from a point that you do not have a LOS to.

[noob]

Actually the more i think about it the more i realise it's not the unrealism or gameyness that bothers me, otherwise i would have to object to the godlike power of being able to move around and float over the whole map which technically allows me to do the same thing that the waypoint LOS target line does but more precisely, it's its usefulness and functionality that bothers me, and that is because i am one of those players that studies the terrain ad nauseum and i think that gives me an edge over lazier players, but now that function allows lazier players to workout the same information i do but quicker and with more precision so i lose my edge

[Erwin]

One could examine the terrain more knowledgeably in CM1. I find the CM2 terrain is just too tricky - much harder to figure it out than in CM2. It's hard to know if your guys are in cover or not since there are no tree bases.

As you mention, there are so many gamey aspects to CM - cos it IS a game and NOT an accurate sim of RL.

As a WEGO player, before I realized one could see LOS from each waypoint, I would waste many minutes moving units a few feet this way or that way to get LOS which common sense and viewing from level 1 would suggest would be no problem.

In RL, my guys would easily have found LOS. So, it's one of those things that helps overcome the lack of AI "common sense."

In terms of gameyness, I am far more bothered by the fact that artillery is completely fudged, that highly-trained Snipers and Recon function no better re spotting or hiding etc than regular troops, and vehicles with telescoping arms for missiles, get KIA fast since the system treats them like any other vehicle etc etc...

[LongLeftFlank]

Are you sure? I always thought it meant that no LOS whatsoever, and grey lines means that some guys might be able to shoot. Could happen though that if someone shifts around that LOS might be possible.

You certainly can't issue TARGET commands without having a "unit" LOS. But the Target line is drawn from the approximate center of the firing unit. Individual soldiers off to the sides can, and do, shoot (and get shot at by) targets of opportunity that come into their view. This feature is actually quite sophisticated, and with some experience you can use the FACE command to have your guys wriggle around to improve their individual sight lines/cover, even though you still may not be able to issue an Order. I wish BFC would take this feature even further than they do now.

[hoolaman]

The plotting LOS from waypoints is really essential for WEGO. You are plotting forward in time what someone would find when they get to a destination.

It does certainly unrealistically allow you to find a perfect firing position, but I don't find it is totally gamey because the alternative is unrealistically being unable to find a decent position with LOS. Remember it is not exactly WYSIWYG because of the action spot system so in Wego you'd be edging forward over multiple turns just to look over a hill.

[Major SNAFU]

The plotting LOS from waypoints is really essential for WEGO. You are plotting forward in time what someone would find when they get to a destination.

It does certainly unrealistically allow you to find a perfect firing position, but I don't find it is totally gamey because the alternative is unrealistically being unable to find a decent position with LOS. Remember it is not exactly WYSIWYG because of the action spot system so in Wego you'd be edging forward over multiple turns just to look over a hill.

Amen! And as one who doesn't currently foresee a time when I won't be playing WEGO - I hope they BF doesn't change this much, if at all.