Gill deployment

[Erwin]

"If the sniper on the other hand is just sitting in the open...?

What sort of range we talking about? Presumably, the sniper is at his best/safest around 800m+ from target(?) Also, the sniper would have appropriate camo (the game should assume that), spread a cover on the ground in fromt of his muzzle to mitigate dust etc.

[Dietrich]

the sniper would have appropriate camo (the game should assume that), spread a cover on the ground in fromt of his muzzle to mitigate dust etc.

But what about a scenario in which a sniper team is in on foot or in a vehicle in the setup zone, rather than already in position? Rare is the scenario where a sniper team (less infrequently a scout team) is already placed in a lying-up position, presumably having stalked to that place the night before and observing the "area of interest".

Please understand, Erwin, that I'm not disagreeing with you per se. I'd certainly like it if scout teams and sniper teams performed better than they do. However, (1) I doubt it's reasonable to expect any adjustments thereto until CM:SF 2 and (2) I personally have achieved reasonably good results—good observation, not losing units inordinately, etc.—with scout teams and sniper teams as they already are simply by applying what I understand to be real-world tactics.

I do agree, though, that a sniper (team) that is already in position at the start of a scenario should have boosted spotting capability and increased accuracy until it moves from the place in which it began the scenario.

[abneo3sierra]

"If the sniper on the other hand is just sitting in the open...?

What sort of range we talking about? Presumably, the sniper is at his best/safest around 800m+ from target(?) Also, the sniper would have appropriate camo (the game should assume that), spread a cover on the ground in fromt of his muzzle to mitigate dust etc.

In my tests, I was the sniper team, and engaged anywhere from 100-900m. And yes, they are like a navy submarine...stealthy once in position, but they are not "supermen" and they are at their most weak point, while obtaining their position. IRL it takes much longer usually for a sniper team to obtain its position, than is the length of a CMSF scenario...scenario designers should probably plan this accordingly,and begin with the sniper already in a perfect position. Scouts on the other hand, have to go forward, and that very act often enough leads to engagement, usually with enemy scouts who also are moving forward. The key for scouts are communications and mobility, rather than just expecting them to be invisible. There are even some situations where I would send fast moving scouts forward, specifically designed to draw fire, with either themselves, or another OP, observing the location of the opposing fire,and then calling down arty or setting up an assault on that location...speedy scouts are actually quite good at this, although it requires a "touch" to pull them back before they are actually hit by opposing fire...as well as not to make that move, near other,hidden assets,because often the opfor will also call arty on the scouts,who you will clear out before it arrives,but you don't want some other unit that just happened to be hiding there, to receive the gift meant for your scouts.

[Erwin]

I think we all mostly agree. And in any case it's all academic as we're unlikely to see much, if any, improvement in CMSF, just maybe a few fixes.

However, given the existing product, I wonder if the opfor (whichever that is) may have an (AI?) advantage that make opfor snipers more dangerous than blue team's.

[abneo3sierra]

One last note on here from the German campaign, snipers probably should not be used in a open firefight. The original post here was regarding ATGMs, and really the use of snipers should be nearly the same.Take a shot,perhaps two at most, then stop, and either fall back to a preset position 'B' or let some time go along before firing again.This prevents your being found by your fire. In the German campaign using this, along with the fact that snipers are generally attached with mobile assets such as Marders or Wolf vehicles, I have been having great success with them in this style. Research the terrain, have a plan already for new positions to fall back on, take your shot(s) move behind terrain "quick" just as you use your armored vehicles,get to your transport,and move to the next spot. I ran through in "Basic Training" mode to allow me to see the enemy results, and have caused 23 enemy casualties, to the loss of one sniper to artillery fire.

Ron

[Erwin]

That's good info, Ron. Thanks.

I think my perspective is more "what makes for a better game" - hence I liked the CM1 snipers which seemd to have "better and unique qualities." I take the point that in RL it's about taking hours/days to sneak into position. But, in game terms, it would enhance the entertainment factor to have them have superior skillsets like better at scouting/spotting. Same with scouts.

For the same reason, I would like to see stats on individual soldier's performance so that in a campaign (which can easily be considered to take place over a period of months) one could enhance experience, even award medals and promote. I am very keen re enhancing immersion.

[abneo3sierra]

I like this, and my brother uses it in a way, keeping pretty detailed stats with pen and paper in his games, for the same reason..it's nice to see that gunner from A/3/7th get thru his 10th battle :-P. It would be nice to have the ability to follow, I think for individual battles, CMX1 did this for at least armored vehicles and guns.

For me, I do think (though it would be nice if someone who knows would clarify) that the snipers have a better ph% than other troops...in mine, it seemed like I hit an awfully high percentage of shots with them...it may also be not only the sniper, but the stats for their weapon, as well,but anyone who knows, I'd be interested in clarification. A normal squad of soldiers in CMSF I can sit and trade fire with an enemy squad (figure 6-12 weapons firing on each side depending on squad type) and take some minutes to see a casualty, where with sniper fire, I am seeing one every 1.5 or 2 shots fired...which is probably a realistic rate since most snipers will not fire until they have THE PERFECT shot.

Ron

[Erwin]

That's the problem. Without statistics one has no idea what worked or not. It would be great to know whether the way one is using (for example) snipers is effective or not.

[Dietrich]

Anecdotal evidence: In a British campaign scenario, I saw a British sniper (whose experience was merely Regular) score a first-round kill on an uncon machine-gunner whom the sniper had first spotted just half a minute before. Admittedly, the range was "only" 400 meters or so.