panzermartin Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Yeah but this wouldnt be smart from a marketing point of view. Nobody wants a game where the germans win every time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 I don't think it's credible to suggest that AFVs go into action with less than a metre spacing between them. Also, the Jg.Pz that was up there got badly knocked about in the two one-minute exposures he had up there. It's a good position, but it isn't a free ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner14 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 If there were only ten meters in a superior position allowing to predecide a battle? Why not? Sure the tank got knocked badly. Because the poor crew wasn't in a keyhole position and you used 1 against 3, and so all the returning fire was concentrated on it. When you are fighting, do you prefer to fight alone against three, while praying, or do you prefer to have as many helpers on your side as possible before you begin? What would you do, if there were nine Shermans down there? Then you would attack with three? It's all a matter of statistics: With three attackers hull-down - the probability for the first shot is on their side - assuming only a extremely low "Ersttrefferwahrscheinlichkeit" first hit probability of 30% over that distance, the probability is very high, that only two enemy tanks will be capable to return fire, while one is knocked out immediately. And that returning fire needs to be spread over three tiny hulldown targets, with armor that almost cannot be penetrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambronne Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Jon,so,you say there is no room for the other JgPz next to this one?It seems enough room for me... Was your idea to delay the attack and make the Americans pay heavy for the advance, or to stop it in its tracks before taking the hill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Why dont you monday morning quarterbacks take a break eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Agreed, enjoy this DAR for what it is, a very welcome opportunity to see CM:BN in action. This is not a seminar on tactics ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawomi Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Why dont you monday morning quarterbacks take a break eh? Because it is Wensday evening here in Germany right now and we don't want to see the Amis win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambronne Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Steiner,Ok ,the lone JgPz may fight an unbalanced battle,but are you sure he would have done better to bring the other vehicle along? What about the other flank? Enemy units were spotted in front of the left flank as well and maybe he wasn't sure he could switch the armor fast enough in case of an attack on his left( which as I can see is suitable for armor attack). Overall I agree with you:concentrate all armor on the right,recoil the Americans,and after that move back as fast as you can in order to be ready in case the main attack is on the left.But we have to follow Jon's strategy to understand his approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 So, apparently, high wooden fences are evocative of American farms to the French, and of French farms to the Americans. But wooden fencing hasn't been the primary choice for either French or American farmers for over 100 years. Ironic. I suspect the prevalence of wooden fencing in movies has a lot to do with the visual appeal -- a wooden fence creates a clearly visible straight line that helps establish distance in the frame. For the same reason, long straight roads are also very popular in films. Yeah wood fences look better but has it been established that we even get regular farm barbed wire fences as opposed to military grade? And do we get stinging nettle? It's not Europe unless we get stinging nettle that if your troops dive into they jump up and start itching! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 6: The Battle for the Bois de Baugin It turns out that the start of The Duel coincided with the start of Elvis’ assault on the northern edge of the Bois de Baugin and Hill 154. What I initially thought was a panicky smokescreen to cover his tanks from the Hunters was in fact probably a deliberate smokescreen to cover the move of his infantry as the assaulted up from enfilade fire originating on Hill 144. Both actions continued in parallel, separated by just a few 10s of metres. As the US forces built up on this flank, I started to move the platoon that was being held back in depth forward onto the Hill proper. I needed to, since the ‘frontline’ here consists of the HMG I sidestepped earlier, a ‘schreck team, and the 50mm PaK with its attendant HQ, ammo team, and LMG team. That’s some pretty thin beer considering they appear to be up against a rifle company and a platoon of tanks. And the PaK can only see out across the map, and can’t fire into the area under threat anyway. I start by reinforcing with artillery. Indirect fire is wonderful because it can be moved, totally without risk, to anywhere on the battlefield within a relatively few minutes. At minute 12 these were my artillery targets: (larger image) They’re both being controlled by a Mortar Platoon commander away over on the forward face of Hill 144. The central one is some 81mm mortars being directed on a pair of MMGs. The right hand one is 120mm against the concentration of enemy units massing along the end of the lateral. I figure most riflemen will have moved on by the time the rounds arrive, but any HQs, reserve, and support weapons will have a bad day. Incidentally, you can see the smoke screen Elvis created with his Shermans forming nicely there too. At minute 16 these were the artillery targets: (larger image) The red circle is the 120mm falling. The MPI (mean point of Impact) is a bit further back than I’d like, but there’s reasonable coverage of the road. The three overlapping circles are two 81mm and a 75mm mission. The bit I really care about is the area inside, and just beside the treeline. My guys are just off-map to the right, and I don’t want any rounds falling on them. That combined coverage should inflict a fair amount of attrition, and really bugger up any attempt to re-org and push on further in to the Bois. It might seem that there’s a lot of ‘wasted’ area to the left of the green circles. Part of the problem here is that the platoon HQ calling in the mission doesn’t really have great command of the ground. Hill 144 is sort-of high enough, but the high bits are covered in trees, which block LOS. Therefore he’s had to come down, and that’s left him looking quite ‘flat’ across the face of the ploughed paddock, and there are enough undulations there that he can’t quite see where he needs to. CMBN does allow units calling in fire to call it in a certain distance beyond their strict eyeball LOS, to simulate the ability to adjust from observed plumes, and interpreting from the shape of the ground, etc, and I’ve used that to the max here. Besides, the rounds on the open face aren’t really wasted anyway, since they’ll cause problems for any units attempting to move up to the Bois from the lateral. But, overall, the key point here is that a lot of firepower has been concentrated in a small area, at little risk. All to mess with these guys: (larger image) Yep, this is pretty much all I saw of his assault on minute 14. A couple of guys, widely spaced, jogging up the hill. But I have to assume there are more. Lots more. You can see loads of contact reports down on the lateral, and, while he’s obviously have been left out in the sun too long at some point, I don’t think even Elvis is loopy enough to mount a major attack with just a couple of guys. But I only saw a few, and that’s because I’d deliberately surrendered the forward edge of the forest, in order to avoid being eaten up at no cost by a battery of Shermans parked down on the lateral and conducting a direct-fire shoot. Besides, Hill 154 is a very significant objective for me, but I only have to hold the rear half of it. The forward half has no value to me except as a place to fight and kill Americans. In order to make sure I hold that rear half, though I’ve started moving my reserve ... all of it. This looks to me like it is his main effort, and if I can defeat it I’ll win. This, therefore, is the place to commit that reserve. The platoon on the rear of Hill 154 moves forward to string a line just behind the outpost line, while the other two platoons hook around under cover in behind that platoon. Finally, I swung the second Jg.Pz.IV through dead ground in the opposite direction, to take up an enfilade position from the rear flank of Hill 144. All that movement get’s started early enough – based on the mass of contacts on the lateral and the platoon of Shermans revealed by The Duel - that it’s well underway by the time the attack starts, and the lead platoon is pretty much in position in good time. That pre-emption came at the cost of a careless mistake. The rear platoon had an LMG team and a ‘shreck team near the forward edge of the forest as a piquet. When moving the platoon forward I was lazy and double-tapped on the platoon HQ, and gave everyone a single leg Quick move forward about 100m. Because I was zoomed down looking on the platoon I didn’t notice the detachments off screen, and of course they got the order too ... and promptly ran out into the open thinking “WTF is the Boss up to now!?”, and just as promptly got gunned down. Arrgh! I wonder if they at least confused Elvis. I hope so. To make up the slack I rushed the LMG and the HQ from the PAK over, and together with the HMG they pretty much halted the assault just a bit inside the treeline – it was an amazing performance. Here’s the PaK LMG team, surrounded by dead and wounded Americans. It’s a bit hard to see but there are now multiple different dead positions, and there are also several death animations. (larger image) One of the LMG crew is dead in the image above. Sadly the other guy died next turn. Throughout the area US and German units opened up on each other at 20m or less. With the few units I had in action Elvis was able to infiltrate a little, leaving our forces quite intermingled. It was chaotic, and fantastic to watch it develop and play out over several turns. And at the end the American attack was stopped at - from what I could tell - fairly high cost. Feeling a rush of blood to the head, feeling confident with three defence layers consisting of outpost-lead platoon- rear platoons, and deciding that the Americans must be disrupted as a result of their assault, I decided the time was right to launch a quick counter attack with the lead platoon. That turned out to be a really bad idea. In no time flat the platoon got cut to ribbons and the counterattack foundered with no appreciable gain. to be continued... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Good stuff, man, good stuff...unfortunately I don't have five paragraphs letting you know what you are doing wrong...but seriously you guys are really engaging us and your different styles compliment each other. "Several death animations" as in different from CMSF? Or added to what we had in CMSF...or the same? Mord. P.S. Oh, and I guess I am the weird one 'cause I loved that road picture...I actually showed it to my brother earlier today...The in game scenery is really sweet...I can't wait to just play around in the editor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Yes, when a soldier becomes a casualty the animation there are a few different animations that are used. The final posture is determined by that animation choice. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 LMAO...as in different from CMSF? Or added to what we had in CMSF...or the same? The new postures are awesome! Mord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Yes, different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Fallen soldiers look very natural. Great job indeed. Does this mean idle and others animations have been enriched too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner14 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 JonS, when can we expect installments 7 & 8? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krilly Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Good write up again, I appreciate the amount of time you take to give a good account of the stuff you see happen and why you react aka what choices you make and why. The action in the woods indeed is quite interesting, I wonder how it will unfold further on. And I wonder whether the brave Panzermen can rake up more kills, we still need those ronsons on fire Btw, I seem to see very little 'graphical effect' of the arty in the screens. Just smoke mostly. Could you show us some explosions, dirt geysers and craters? I want some pretty pyrothechnics, hollywood spoiled me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkhorn1x Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Btw, I seem to see very little 'graphical effect' of the arty in the screens. Just smoke mostly. Could you show us some explosions, dirt geysers and craters? I want some pretty pyrothechnics, hollywood spoiled me I hear ya but low def screens cannot do justice to these aspects. We need a high def Youtube video showing a couple of minutes of action. Yep, that's the ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share Posted January 6, 2011 Fallen soldiers look very natural. Great job indeed. Does this mean idle and others animations have been enriched too? They certainly have. There's one where a soldier nods his head forward, then brings a hand up to rub his helmet against his scalp as if to say "jeez this thing is hot and heavy and uncomfortable." It's really quite charming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share Posted January 6, 2011 7: The Battle for the Bois de Baugin continued... After the abortive counterattack things settled down, with occasional flurries of activity and killing as some random bloke un-cowered, looked around, and gunned down some enemy or was gunned down himself. In order to prevent Elvis infiltrating around the edge of the woods, I got the two HMG-42s away over on Hill 144 chattering away, firing into the flank of the Bois. (larger image) The beaten zone is quite large and the HMG teams have a ton of ammo so I just left them to it, firing away minute after minute after minute, moving the aim point about from time to time. I don’t know if they’ll inflict any casualties, I’d be pretty surprised if they did, actually. But they’ll restrict Elvis’ options in the Bois, which in itself is a success. This is the position around the Bois at the end of minute 18: Our forces on the skirmish line are still a little intermingled, but by unspoken consent we both pulled back a little, and the shooting tailed right off. I tried shuffling the HMGs in the hamlet around to add some more firepower, but that didn’t really work, since none of them could get a decent LOS, even from the upper story in some of the buildings. The scout team that was in position forward between the Bois and the hamlet had long since ceased serving any useful purpose, so I figured it was time to get him out of there. Amazingly, he managed to sprint across to the orchard unseen (I think). They eventually moved up into the Bois through the dead ground – a total distance of about 500m from their start point – and added a couple of MP-40s to the defence. The really amazing thing, to me, is that when it quietened down, around minute 20, my total casualties were something like 15 men – the sniper pair on turn 1 (2), the LMG and ‘schreck team who did the pointless ‘assault’ (2 each), most of the HMG team (4), and five (5) from the counterattack. All of them in the Bois. I still have two platoons in the Bois, and another over on Hill 144, who’ve not yet been engaged, and no objective locations are under serious threat. I’m pretty happy with my position right now. Strangely, Elvis doesn’t seem to have used any artillery yet. I have been though. This is the target pattern at the end of minute 20: (larger image) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Awesome. I just love this CMx2 engine flexibility where new things are added step by step with each release. Kinda makes you wonder how impressively the game will look and play when we reach ostfront etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphonne Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 7: The Battle for the Bois de Baugin continued... lots of stuff HOLY COW that MG42 spews those tracers right after eachother! I'm judging that the effect of an MG42 on the enemy's morale is quite devastating? Oh yes, almost forgot in my excitement about the MG42. When you give indirect or direct fire orders to on map mortars, can you adjust the pattern as well (line, circle et cetera)? What other adjustments can you give to on map batteries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 HOLY COW that MG42 spews those tracers right after eachother! Brings a question back into my mind... Will there still be tracers fire all the time ? It was always easy to spot enemy positions just by looking where does tracers coming from. I nerver liked that, it kept the level of confusion (where is that damn fire coming from) quit low... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERISS Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 1: Setup What are the tools to help setting the troops in the field? The bigger flaw of CM1s was there was only a line, and not a colouring of the map (as in Steel Panthers). That's why I found it very boring to play defensive, as you must conceal the troops and you can't see quickly all where they are seen from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I can answer the question about on-map indirectly. From the spotter's perspective there is no difference between on and off-map behavior. When you think about it, there shouldn't be because we're simulating the indirect fire, not whether the asset is on or off the map. Fields can be arranged horizontally or vertically. Er.. I don't think diagonally, but maybe JonS can answer that. We also have fields with crops in them. This changes LOS conditions. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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