CM:BN Beta AAR/DAR Bois de Baugin - German side

[WineCape]

God dammit Jon, part three is all: "the next 60secs are awfully exciting." instead you post an ode to a road. Terrible terrible human being.

Agreed Bastables. Jon's priorities need to be whacked into place, before he deliver another ode to bird species and tree types ...

[JonS]

*yeesh* You guys

Did you know that in the midst of the Battle of Villers Bocage, Brigadier 'Looney' Hinde stopped his own O-Group, asked for a matchbox, then spent the next couple of minutes scrambling around in the grass catching a bug? When he finally got it in the box he nonchalantly pointed out that you can fight a battle everyday of your life, but you mightn't see such a caterpillar for 15 years!

If he can stop to appreciate the beauty of a little bug in the middle of a critical battle, I think the least you lot can do is sit back with a cup of tea and savour a road.

[Dietrich]

If he can stop to appreciate the beauty of a little bug in the middle of a critical battle, I think the least you lot can do is sit back with a cup of tea and savour a road.

With my luck, the teacup would be shattered by an unserendipitous Spitzgeschoß just before it got to my mouth. :cool:

[Cambronne]

a couple of minutes,but we are in the field for one whole night contemplating that piece of nature...and brrr got really cold.

Anyway,it may be because you guys want to keep us busy till the release,and if you'd have posted 10 turns per day we would have been bored again in just a couple of days. As it is now... a road here,a text there...not bad either.If each of you manage,between these,to post DAR twice a day I am all right. Thanks!

[JonS]

5: The Duel

Last time we left our heroes they’d sidled up to the edge of the wheat field, and were looking down across the first lateral track at three Shermans parked in a ploughed field.

Then all hell broke loose.

Look at the exquisite detail on this Jg.Pz.IV

(larger image)

Just look at it!

Elvis’ tanks started pumping out smoke for all they’re worth, creating a linear smokescreen roughly between their leftmost tank (from a POV at the top of the hill) and The Hunter. The smoke screen developed quickly, but not quick enough. Two 75mm AP grenades slammed into the Platoon HQ tank, and that was the end of that. The Hunter didn’t get away unscathed though – it took a few hits on the glacis, and with the smokescreen blinding the crew they reversed away after only a minute of firing.

With the US attack on Hill 154 gathering steam I ordered The Hunter back into the fray a couple of minutes later. Hunting forward to the same spot, much slower this time (short hunt legs, with a 5 second pause at the end of each one), he arrived back at approximately the same spot about 5 minutes after the first appearance. The smoke had cleared enough that another engagement was on, and this time he aimed at an M4A3(75)W. One solid hit was achieved, but in return four more American shells slammed into The Hunters thick hide, shaking the crew.

(larger image)

With damage accumulating rapidly it was time to pull out again, but not before punching another round into the M4A3.

(larger image)

Look at the exquisite detail on this Sherman. See those buckle down straps on the turret rear? They aren’t just painted on. Just look at it!

Note, also, what a good position that is for the Jg.Pz.IV. It's skylined, yes, but otherwise it's a pretty good hull down position. High ground: it's good for you.

With observation lost there’s no way to tell if another kill has been scored, but with two solid hits at about 400m you’d have to think so. In the debit column, the crew are all still in one piece but The Hunter’s tracks are badly damaged and its speed has been reduced to a crawl. The radio and optics are also damaged, as is the nahver-thingy. It can still fight, but situational awareness is down, and manoeuvring is going to be painfully slow. Because of this The Hunter sat out the next 10 minutes of the fighting while the crew pulled themselves back together on the reverse slope of Hill 154.

[GreenAsJade]

If he can stop to appreciate the beauty of a little bug in the middle of a critical battle, I think the least you can do is sit back with a cup of tea and savour a road.

Says the man with the new toys!!

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

75mm AP grenades slammed into the Platoon HQ tank

How did you know it was the HQ tank?

GaJ

[Thin Red Line]

Hi JonS,

Nice report, thanks for the effort.

What are the victory conditions of this scenario ?

At first glance and unless i missed something, it seems to be a classical "take the flag" ala Cmx1 scenario type.

Cmx2 brought a lot of finesse in the tactical side of the game and it would very nice to see how it plays in the battle of Normandy settings.

While i understand the merits of showing an "old style" battle for those among us who never stopped playing the best ww2 game ever, CMx1, i also think it would be beneficial to show how the game has evolved in that aspect.

And by the way, from the screenshots i find the normand countryside rather well represented in the map, but the omnipresence of wooden barriers is a very american touch. In France we more commonly use barbed wire enclosures for cattle, and they don't provide any cover against ennemy fire. No idea if they exist in the game.

Best,

TRL

[JonS]

How did you know it was the HQ tank?

Down the bottom in the UI it tells you.

[Jaws]

Nice demonstration of how to use the Jagpanzer IV

[GreenAsJade]

Down the bottom in the UI it tells you.

Wierd eh? How would you actually know that (IRL)? Kind of an important thing to know, isn't it?

(Or is "in command" less of a big deal in CMx2, since for a start there's no "extra command delays" associated with not being in command!)

GaJ

[JonS]

Hi TRL,

What are the victory conditions of this scenario?

Each side has 1000 points total to play for. I think the second post of this thread shows the location VPs in play for the Germans, which together come to 500pts. The remaining 500 are split between inflicting enemy cas (mostly, IIRC) and preserving friendly forces (not so much). I don't recall exactly what the US objs are - Elvis should be able to tell you though

While i understand the merits of showing an "old style" battle

As it happens, this was just a scen I've been noodling about with for a while. It wasn't designed - or even modified - with this AAR in mind

... the omnipresence of wooden barriers is a very american touch. In France we more commonly use barbed wire enclosures for cattle, and they don't provide any cover against enemy fire. No idea if they exist in the game.

There is barbed wire in the game, but as a military obstacle, not an agricultural one.

Regards

Jon

[JonS]

Wierd eh? How would you actually know that (IRL)? Kind of an important thing to know, isn't it?

Yeah, it is important. There've been discussions in the past about whether you'd be able to differentiate a commanders tank from a squaddies tank. There is some merit in the argument that you can.

In this case, though, I didn't select a target, I let the AI pick for itself. In fact, I usually let the AI pick for itself. It was only during the replays that I noticed it was the HQ tank.

(Or is "in command" less of a big deal in CMx2, since for a start there's no "extra command delays" associated with not being in command!)

Oh no. No no. Command is really important - as you'll see in a few posts' time

[scottie]

what happens to objects like fences and walls once a tracked vehicle breaches them ?

can a 2.5 tonne truck breach a fence / wall ?

[ZPB II]

what happens to objects like fences and walls once a tracked vehicle breaches them ?

can a 2.5 tonne truck breach a fence / wall ?

Atleast in CMA which is the latest version of the CMx2 engine (I've been led to believe atleast ) tanks drive through a fence, crushing it and usually suffer minor track damage. I think wheeled vehicles are mostly unable to do so, but a "fence" in CMA is a thick stone wall you'd find in Afghanistan. :cool:

[YankeeDog]

And by the way, from the screenshots i find the normand countryside rather well represented in the map, but the omnipresence of wooden barriers is a very american touch. In France we more commonly use barbed wire enclosures for cattle, and they don't provide any cover against ennemy fire. No idea if they exist in the game.

That's not an "American" touch, except perhaps in that, for some reason, maybe some American scenario designers perceive 1940s Normandy as having lots of wooden fencing. I wouldn't know enough to have an opinion regarding 1940s Norman agricultural fencing myself...

Wooden fencing hasn't been the primary choice for cattle enclosures in the United States since the late 19th century. Indeed, the availability of cheap barbed wire was one of the major catalysts that initiated the transition from "open range" cattle farming to enclosed ranches in the United States. By the 20th century, wooden fencing was mostly used for "prestige" applications (wooden fencing is seen as "quaint" and more attractive than wire fencing), and also in certain specific types of animal husbandry, such as horse farms.

Again, I can't speak to French farming history, but it would make sense to me that things followed a similar path as they did in the U.S., and that by the 1940s most Norman farmers would be using barbed wire where there wasn't an already standing bocage or stone wall to serve their enclosure needs.

[Michael Emrys]

Did you know that in the midst of the Battle of Villers Bocage, Brigadier 'Looney' Hinde stopped his own O-Group, asked for a matchbox, then spent the next couple of minutes scrambling around in the grass catching a bug? When he finally got it in the box he nonchalantly pointed out that you can fight a battle everyday of your life, but you mightn't see such a caterpillar for 15 years!

Which goes a long way toward establishing a case that the British should not have gotten themselves in a war in the first place! (Also explains the nickname of the brigadier.)

Michael

[Thin Red Line]

Again, I can't speak to French farming history, but it would make sense to me that things followed a similar path as they did in the U.S., and that by the 1940s most Norman farmers would be using barbed wire where there wasn't an already standing bocage or stone wall to serve their enclosure needs.

Good point, i said that because the high wooden fences are always evocative of american movies to me !

You occasionnaly see them in Normandy in horses stud farms.

My recommandation for maps designers would be to use them moderately and place bocage instead.

[YankeeDog]

So, apparently, high wooden fences are evocative of American farms to the French, and of French farms to the Americans. But wooden fencing hasn't been the primary choice for either French or American farmers for over 100 years. Ironic.

I suspect the prevalence of wooden fencing in movies has a lot to do with the visual appeal -- a wooden fence creates a clearly visible straight line that helps establish distance in the frame. For the same reason, long straight roads are also very popular in films.

[Steiner14]

Very interesting OBR. Good marketing idea.

JonS, i have a question regarding your tactics:

What i can see from the report, you're not following one of the most important rules in german doctrine: Schwerpunktbildung. Concentrate fire: if you have more than one, then never use tanks/TDs alone. Two of them are not 100% stronger than one, but ~130-150% stronger, three of them already are roughly 400% stronger than a single one.

Two, even better three of them, in a good hulldown position against Shermans without air support in open field? Like presented rabbits.

Or is there a reason you don't follow doctrine?

[panzermartin]

Because he can't spell...Seriously, Schwerpunktbildung??

[Krilly]

Because he can't spell...Seriously, Schwerpunktbildung??

what makes you think that?

The radio and optics are also damaged, as is the nahver-thingy

Hehe

Anyways, what you fence grogs seem to fail to notice is that we are getting some nice screenshots of jagdPanzers and Shermans in action. And oh boy what are they looking nice in the screenshots. I particullary like the 'clutter on the rear' of both the Jagdpanzer and Sherman being there all modeled in lovely 3d. Lovely.

And some nice random bones thrown in as well. New ammo tracking, localized damage on vehicles, intelligent road moddeling, C2 effects on units aaah so much to take in

[JonS]

So, apparently, high wooden fences are evocative of American farms to the French, and of French farms to the Americans. But wooden fencing hasn't been the primary choice for either French or American farmers for over 100 years. Ironic.

And personally, I have an South Pacific aesthetic. As far as I'm concerned you northern lot all wander round in leiderhosen with strings of garlic round your neck and a Schlitz-lite in your pudgy paws

I suspect the prevalence of wooden fencing in movies has a lot to do with the visual appeal -- a wooden fence creates a clearly visible straight line that helps establish distance in the frame. For the same reason, long straight roads are also very popular in films.

Something I forgot to mention last night - there's a bit of a game play issue too. Barbed wire fences are fairly insubstantial, and would be difficult to see from anything other than view 1 or 2. The wooden fences, while they may technically be wrong, at least have the merit of being visible. And, as always, they can be modded if you really must have a barbedwire fence

[JonS]

is there a reason you don't follow doctrine?

Cos their doctrine lost them two world wars (and a world cup too)?

Kidding.

JonS, i have a question regarding your tactics:

What i can see from the report, you're not following one of the most important rules in german doctrine: Schwerpunktbildung. Concentrate fire: if you have more than one, then never use tanks/TDs alone. Two of them are not 100% stronger than one, but ~130-150% stronger, three of them already are roughly 400% stronger than a single one.

Two, even better three of them, in a good hulldown position against Shermans without air support in open field? Like presented rabbits.

The flat-ish shelf beside the Bois that The Hunter is working on is really quite narrow - too narrow for two vehicles to comfortably work in. Also I wanted to keep the TD reasonably snug up against the Bois to minimise it's exposure to the flanks, especially the left flank as I look at it. A second vehicle would have to be a reasonable distance out, and would be very exposed.

Finally, there's no need to concentrate physically in order to concentrate fire.

[Steiner14]

Finally, there's no need to concentrate physically in order to concentrate fire.

But you didn't concentrate your fire...

too narrow for two vehicles to comfortably work in.

What do you need to work in? You had one vastly superior decisive hull-down position against three rabbits in the open field! Within 10 meters there's place for three of your JPz to appear simultaneously...

They don't need to maneuver into depth, they only need to take that position once, clear the field from the Shermans within one or two minutes and retreat. Job finished. Battle won. Next AAR. :D