Kanonier Reichmann Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Im secretely rooting for the boche... Not much of a secret now is it! Very intense DAR Jon. Keep up the good work. Regards KR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 How much artillery do you have left? Are all your fire missions used up? Seems like your company 81mms ought to be dropping a fairly steady rain of death on Elvis at this point as the locations of his infantry concentrations become evident. http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1226390&postcount=325 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'm not sure - I think so. Why? The effects of suppression drop away if the unit is in a safe place or not under fire. But I don't think units who've just seen their mates shredded by artillery, or perforated by an MG, should recover their morale within the timeframe of a scenario. I like it this way, since it forces another layer of cost-benefit decisions on the player. It also starkly highlights one of the benefits of having an uncommitted reserve ... which I wish I still had right about now Jon So once a unit has morale = panic, it never recovers? This is definitely a big change, even from CMx1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I agree with Jon though, this is pretty realistic. It should be possible, I hope, to prevent a given unit from reaching panic if they are under the influence of a leader with exceptional characteristics. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I agree with Jon though, this is pretty realistic. It should be possible, I hope, to prevent a given unit from reaching panic if they are under the influence of a leader with exceptional characteristics. Michael So once a unit has morale = nervous, it should never recover, even if it stays out of combat far in the rear for 30 minutes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 So once a unit has morale = nervous, it should never recover, even if it stays out of combat far in the rear for 30 minutes? I don't see why it should. Sitting on the battlefield a couple hundred meters from the bullets at best for 30 minutes isn't exactly a vacation at Disneyland. You push your troops too hard and break them it's going to take more than a breather to get their heads straight. ETA: It isn't nervous morale level, it's a lower morale level. Can't recall it off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 It should be possible, I hope, to prevent a given unit from reaching panic It certainly is, and this is key. But it isn't all about the leader. That certainly helps, of course, but and OM points out: if you ask them to do the impossible - or even the merely too hard but too often - you'll break your units. Tanks are more robust, but infantry really need to be handled with care. Of course, there is a flipside to this: if you can start rattling the enemy, you can leverage that into a cascading victory. As I said earlier, it's in both sides interests to try really really hard to maintain an uncommitted reserve in a safe location for as long as possible. I think a reasonable number of battles will turn on who can maintain their nerve the longest, and identify the key moment when committing that last reserve will really turn the tide of the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chops Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I think a reasonable number of battles will turn on who can maintain their nerve the longest, and identify the key moment when committing that last reserve will really turn the tide of the battle. Sounds very Napoleonic. Hopefully you have the Old Guard hiding on the other side of Hill 144. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I don't see why it should. Sitting on the battlefield a couple hundred meters from the bullets at best for 30 minutes isn't exactly a vacation at Disneyland. You push your troops too hard and break them it's going to take more than a breather to get their heads straight. ETA: It isn't nervous morale level, it's a lower morale level. Can't recall it off the top of my head. Maybe we are talking about different things here. I like the idea of squads being more brittle after intense combat or losing a lot of men, but never recovering from "panicked, shaken or nervous" just sounds like it is a big departure of what was always implemented in CMx1 and CMx2 that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillLight Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I think it was only panicked that they don't recover from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 "This is a direct consequence of my own 75mm artillery falling short – this squad’s morale has been so shaken by that event that they’re no longer capable of attacking. Suppression of units goes up and down according to the amount of fire they’re receiving, but lowered morale is fixed for the duration of the scenario, leaving this squad – and the majority of my force by this stage – for defence-only." That all sounds a bit artificial to me, particularly the 'Suppression of units goes up and down according to the amount of fire they’re receiving' bit. Perhaps there is a bit of a misunderstanding but we are talking about complex situations involving humans, its just not anywhere near as simple as it sounds like in that quote. But this is what testing is all about, finding out the game's weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottie Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 unbelievable , nail biting , a very good read JonS. Interesting to hear crews can get back into serviceable vehicles. You mentioned Elvis has not be clearing up his dead/wounded. Are the benefits of this simply ammo/weapon scavenging ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undercovergeek Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 "This is a direct consequence of my own 75mm artillery falling short – this squad’s morale has been so shaken by that event that they’re no longer capable of attacking. Suppression of units goes up and down according to the amount of fire they’re receiving, but lowered morale is fixed for the duration of the scenario, leaving this squad – and the majority of my force by this stage – for defence-only." That all sounds a bit artificial to me, particularly the 'Suppression of units goes up and down according to the amount of fire they’re receiving' bit. Perhaps there is a bit of a misunderstanding but we are talking about complex situations involving humans, its just not anywhere near as simple as it sounds like in that quote. But this is what testing is all about, finding out the game's weaknesses. surely this is the bit thats most correct?! im under fire - im surpressed im not under fire - im not surpressed therefore supression goes up and down as the battle goes on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thin Red Line Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 If things start to go really bad in a battle, it takes weeks, not minutes, for the soldiers to recover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 You mentioned Elvis has not be clearing up his dead/wounded. Are the benefits of this simply ammo/weapon scavenging ? It affects KIA/WIA stats at the end of the mission. Wounded soldiers who receive buddy aid are more likely to "survive" at the end of the mission than ones who are left to their fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottie Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 It affects KIA/WIA stats at the end of the mission. Wounded soldiers who receive buddy aid are more likely to "survive" at the end of the mission than ones who are left to their fate. Ah i see, didnt know that. Could make the difference between a minor win / draw minor loss then. Thanks for the reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undead reindeer cavalry Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 If things start to go really bad in a battle, it takes weeks, not minutes, for the soldiers to recover. it's usually when whole units become demoralized. on the other hand many units chose to go down shooting, even after suffering prolonged periods of brutal fighting. i find the CMBN system, as described, beautiful and sexy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Crowley Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Observing the German, counting down the minutes to the end of the scenario, will or does CMBN have variable timed endings, as per CMX1. I have always thought that, in effect, everything 'stopping' at a pre-determined and known time was a nonsense, especially if the result is close. Cheers, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'd expect it will work the same as CMSF and will be determined by the scenario designer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 Interesting to hear crews can get back into serviceable vehicles. Yeah, and they can be deliberately abandoned too, which means you can send the crew out to do their own recce, or get out of a damaged vehicle that you think is about to get turned into a flaming wreck before it turns into a flaming wreck. You mentioned Elvis has not be clearing up his dead/wounded. Are the benefits of this simply ammo/weapon scavenging ? Obviously there's the scavenging, which I've made extensive use oif, but there is also an end-game effect. Wounded guys are less likely to slip into the KIA category in the final accounting if they've been buddy-aided. EDIT: oops - I see LukeFF has already answered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'd expect it will work the same as CMSF and will be determined by the scenario designer. Correct. The end can be at a fixed time, or some variable amount of time after a fixed time. For example, the scenario design could specify 30minutes/turns, and that's exactly how long it will last. Alternately, the specify 30+10 which means the scen will last somewhere between 30 and 40 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scheer Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Great DAR, I rather enjoy reading it. How big are the turnfiles you both are sending out ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Obviously there's the scavenging, which I've made extensive use oif, but there is also an end-game effect. Wounded guys are less likely to slip into the KIA category in the final accounting if they've been buddy-aided. I'd like it if the red based guys disappear after buddy aid (evacuate the wounded) while the brown based (dead) guys stay on the field. You could have mass casualties during a battle but have almost no visual indication of it if all the bodies are cleaned up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 How big are the turnfiles you both are sending out ? I have a post about that coming up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'd like it if the red based guys disappear after buddy aid (evacuate the wounded) while the brown based (dead) guys stay on the field. You could have mass casualties during a battle but have almost no visual indication of it if all the bodies are cleaned up. This is a GEAT idea. I often feel the same about big battles and no bodies afterwards. Other side of the coin is that the dead bodies vanishing helps let the player remember if they looted the bodies or not. Maybe a fix for this is having a brown marker under dead bodies that have not been searched then the game could remove the marker all together after a body is looted and leave just the body with no mark at all? Steve? What do you think? Not too hard to put in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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