Jump to content

Tactics Tutorials for CMSF


Recommended Posts

Why? Your units can get suppressed or killed just as easily as the AI's.

The mission parameters are as follows:

BLUEFOR must sustain minimal casualties. REDFOR gets points for each BLUEFOR unit killed.

BLUEFOR cannot call down artillery on the main towns.

Towns are walled compounds.

Also check out the evil terrain and layout of the towns. Plus, you're the Brits with their wimpy amounts of HE and tin can vehicles (minus the Challenger, of course). :D

This mission was designed to be a challenge against the AI. A human player in charge of the Syrians would be a very difficult mission.

Having said that, I'd like to see the principles of war put to test *hint hint* *new tutorial cough*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A new tutorial up. Quick, down and dirty, with accompanying video. I didn't go much into the why of what I did in this one. Hopefully guys will come forward with questions/comments and we can discuss them in the forum.

http://cmsfwarchest.blogspot.com/2010/12/tutorial-30-stryker-company-in-attack.html

I have very closely looked at your tutorial. It is very well done, like the preceding ones.

I don’t have particular remarks about the tactic used, but since you are expecting some questions, here we go.

I have noticed that you have quite a lot of fire power provided by the mortars, the artillery and the Kiowa’s, not to speak of the tracks and MGS.

To my belief, the use of all these assets, without any ammo restriction on the village and its near surrounding ridges, will be difficult to obtain at, more or less, the same time in RL.

I have, also been surprised to see that the Kiowa was strafing the left ridge while an artillery barrage was in effect. In RL the Kiowa would have had a time frame window to get in and out in order to prevent a shell to stray in its flight area.

That deliberate use of such an amount of fire power is typically American and others European forces don’t rely on it to such an extent.

I won’t go into the good or the wrong of it, since these are and have been discuss over and over in War College.

To get back to the tactic, it is a perfect by the book drill using everything that could be an asset in such an assault. That done and well done, it is for a gamer a very good demonstration of what he could do.

Now, I would expect a more difficult tactical assault to, be done, in which the assets would not be quite the same. Let’s figure out, that you have to take the village without Air and artillery, with only mortars for example, with less MGS or without. Would you employ the same tactic ? Will it possible without too much casualties.

If I am putting it that way, it is simply, that I have more than often seen the things turn out a different way than the one initially planned. There are always alternatives and that is a real challenge to overcome them

Once again, thanks for the Tutorials they are very sincerely very well done

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, it is true that I take a little liberty with the fact that CMSF does a crappy job of simulating Air Support and Friendly Fire issues. But I take that liberty here because I have to operate under a time constraint imposed by the scenario. Quite frankly I wish scenario designers would make scenarios for five hours instead of one or two. The game will end when the victory conditions are met or one side is so badly beaten they can no longer resist. That attack in real life would have taken 3-4 hours instead of the 2 provided, for the simple reason that if I have the assets I am going to use them (in a safe, time consuming manner) and in RL I usually wont care (and my boss won't care) how long it takes. The enemy isn't going anywhere, and if he does I achieve my objective anyway. All while preserving my force, which is always my number one priority. In the US Army the hell for leather, over the top, damn the torpedoes attitude of winning wars at any cost is long gone. We learned a long time ago that it is better to pay certain costs (material) over others (people). And every decision and battle plan is made with that premise in mind.

Air assets, with the possible exception of OH-58s actually, can operate simultaneously with Field Artillery since they usually occupy different air space. The artillery will usually come in below the air. Mortars use high angle trajectories and so it is harder to coordinate them with air. That's war time usage of course. No training facility is going to allow you to use them simultaneously due to safety concerns.

As for conducting the attack with limited assets... I didnt actually need to use the MGS platoon or the MG SBF postion. They were there and part of the plan but they ended up not being utilized. I think the MGS platforms may have fired twice throughout the entire battle. So they could have taken up the slack if my arty or air assets were fewer. But this also serves as an example of the "American" way of war. Redundancy and multiple assets to handle multiple contingencies or "developments" is another key to success. Granted, the US commander probably has more diversified "assets" at his disposal than any other commander in history. Which I am sure leaves most with the impression that we are spoiled rotten. But, hey, if you can afford it, buy it. And if you have it, use it.

Thanks for the kind comments re: the tutorial.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quite frankly I wish scenario designers would make scenarios for five hours instead of one or two. The game will end when the victory conditions are met or one side is so badly beaten they can no longer resist. That attack in real life would have taken 3-4 hours instead of the 2 provided, for the simple reason that if I have the assets I am going to use them (in a safe, time consuming manner) and in RL I usually wont care (and my boss won't care) how long it takes. The enemy isn't going anywhere, and if he does I achieve my objective anyway. All while preserving my force, which is always my number one priority. In the US Army the hell for leather, over the top, damn the torpedoes attitude of winning wars at any cost is long gone. We learned a long time ago that it is better to pay certain costs (material) over others (people). And every decision and battle plan is made with that premise in mind.

X2.

I actually wish the timer counted UP, not down. The mission ended when victory conditions were met, or one side surrendered. Points could be allocated to one side or the other, if taken too long, but there should be no arbitrary time limit. If I'm 1 meter away from my objective and run out of time, that's silly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excep of course if you've been given a "no later than" timing. :)

True. Also, I just realised from another thread AI plans need to be taken into consideration.

Still, my main pet peeve in CMSF is the time limits scenario designers force upon you. You can have the best plan in the world, but if your units enter the map all over the place (ie, where the scenario designer wants you to attack from) and you only have one hour, well, good luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The time limit has to be taken in account, when you are designing a scenario, without any doubt. However, one should not forget that it is the set up of the parameters, which decide the win or defeat level. Well thought and credible, set up parameters make a scenario enjoyable. The contrary, makes you becoming mad and frustrated, every time over and over, while trying to replay such a scenario.

It is regrettable that a scenario which is promising with a very well rendered landscape and an interesting briefing comes to be disappointing at the result of the AAR, only because the set up parameters are all, but credible.

I have tried, to no avail, to explain that to a designer whose scenarios are always starting to be at the top of the list and which end, to my sense in a stalemate. That is too bad to ruin all the efforts being done with these badly set parameters.

On my part, I also, have had some difficulties in mastering these set up parameters in some of my earlier scenarios. I did end up with the enemy surrendering before the time I did expect, just because the casualty threshold had been set a bit too low and at other time, when I made other testing, the enemy did not quit easily and fought to the death, just because that threshold was set too higher than it should have been. The result would have been an unrealistic shoot them up game.

So, I think that besides these important casualties threshold, the objectives points are also very important. If your troops have attained and secured their objectives and if these are well tactically defined and credible, a gamer will understand why he has won or has been defeated. If you are securing, lets say all the key commanding areas of a given map and have inflicted heavy casualties to the enemy, you are not going to be happy with the designer when you read having obtained a Total or a Tactical defeat in the AAR, just because the points allowance is poorly handled and that a depleted enemy squad remains on the objective (which it would be unable,anyway to defend).

To resume: Time, Casualties threshold (yours and the enemy), Objectives and Units points, in harmony with the briefing description are the keys opening the path to an enjoyable scenario.

For a given scenario, there are different keys to be chosen, get one wrong and it might make you miss the 5 stars of the repository.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have posted my analysis and plan for the Cain and Abel Scenario on my blog site.

http://cmsfwarchest.blogspot.com/

Hope to start the game tonight. Everyone keep a tight lip until I complete the scenario, dont want any spoilers!

If you want to do this with US forces, I have edited the mission so it is -exactly- the same (including scoring, reinforcements etc), but you just have the equivalent US Forces (Recon Platoon (Mech), Mech Company, Armour Platoon).

Im looking forward to this!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK well I did all that hard work while I was at work today (your tax dollars are being well spent I assure you). And then when I get home and get ready to start playing I realize the crappy screenshots I had taken the night before had steered me wrong. I was assuming the forested western sections of the map were deep woods that would offer cover and concealment to dismounts. Not so. It turns out it might as well be wide open for dismounts since the trees are rather tall and there is practically no undergrowth. So I am back to stage one of my analysis and planning. More to follow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I am back to stage one of my analysis and planning. More to follow.

I had not seen your post. That explain, why your previous analysis was removed. What you have discovered, once on the ground could be part of the type of FOW found in RL analysis despite all the high technologies available. AH, AH !

Awaiting your revised analysis to compare it with my own fight being planned today.

You made me to play it, straight from the box, without any change .

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, new Cain and Abel plan is up. This scenario is definately one for the books. Basically the designer took some serious challenges that could be rather easily mitigated in real life (like crossing the wadi at a place free of enemy fire and opening the entire eastern flank) and rolled them into a difficult problem.

http://cmsfwarchest.blogspot.com/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finished first hour of Cain and Abel last night. Was able to establish foothold on OBJ Abel, defeated the red armored counterattack, and killed off a bunch of ATGM teams with only the loss of one Scimitar and its crew.

/user/tjcmsf

Well jnt62006,

I am waiting to read your tutorial (already saved) till the end of my fight. I have secured the ABEL bridge and the troops are now beyond it. I also lost, in the action at the bridge head a scimitar from a squad hiding in one of the house. With 40 minutes time remaining, I don't see how I could get to all the others objectives without taking un considerate risks.

I was expecting, what seemed to me a normal reaction from the enemy, a counter attack from tanks that should have come from the road leading to CAIN (since their approach would have been hidden by the hill on the right), but for the time being, no one has shown up. The scenario might have few A.I plans ?

I shall try to finish my battle without reading yours and look at it at the end of the battle. Predictably from the professionalism of your recent AAR you will fare better than me.

Bring them shock and awe.

Cheers

PS: It seems to me that 2 hours to reach the objectives is a bit short. Am I right ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finished first hour of Cain and Abel last night. Was able to establish foothold on OBJ Abel, defeated the red armored counterattack, and killed off a bunch of ATGM teams with only the loss of one Scimitar and its crew.

Will be posting video on my youtube page today. http://www.youtube.com/user/tjcmsf

I had a chuckle at the comment of the S2 needing to be shot. :D

It seems to me that 2 hours to reach the objectives is a bit short. Am I right ?

This mission can be done in 2 hours with a fair bit to spare, if you don't fluff around with the west yard. 1 Hour and 20 to get the bridge to ABEL seems a hell of a long time. Did you go around the long way or something, trying to avoid the obvious bottleneck?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This mission can be done in 2 hours with a fair bit to spare, if you don't fluff around with the west yard. 1 Hour and 20 to get the bridge to ABEL seems a hell of a long time. Did you go around the long way or something, trying to avoid the obvious bottleneck?

I really think that to do it in 2 hours, you have to get a thruway all the way down to CAIN, You won’t have the time to flush a coin in the bridge’s toll booth while going past ABEL at full speed while making a remake of the famous THUNDER RUN for the seizure of Baghdad.

More seriously, since I have reach, in Elite RT,theTime Limit and been able, only to take the bridgehead and the different houses around. That comprises the left and right houses and the mosque at the bridge. Then the houses along the river on the left and the taller building taken to have a good view on the road coming from CAIN. I also cleared the first few houses at the corner of the crossroad and got a tank as far as the houses all the way down the road leading to CAIN.

I lost a Scimitar as written earlier while securing the bridge and latter a track and a Challenger while clearing the corner’s houses. All my troopers casualties were mostly sustained while assaulting the taller building, since I feared that a tank counter attack might come from CAIN, that building was the place for a Javelin’s team. That is why I really felt obliged to move a little bit faster than I would have like enduring unwanted casualties.

To answer your question about the West Yard, I only kept an overwatch on it and did not feel that it was safe to get the tracks on the dirt road going through it to outflank the ABEL left side. The enemy got a pounding with snipers, mortars and Scimitar.

The right road going to ABEL is a bottleneck, but it affords a better protection and a safe passage till the curve from which, with smoke cover you can reach with 2 or 3 overbounds the bridge. That assault took place like a well rehearse drill.

It took around 1 hour to 1 hour 20 minutes to secure the bridge head and to begin to move toward the taller building. I was also diverted by the move of the units toward the bridge to prepare the subsequent assault and by the overwatch being deployed more precisely near the West Yard.

Contrarily to JN62006, I have not seen one tank and or track from the enemy, so we can definitively say that they are few A.I plans.

The British got a Minor Defeat at TLR

Blues sustained 13 KIA for 62 Reds, 21 WIA 23, 0 MIA 45, 1 Tkl 0, 2 Avl 0.

An annoying fact was that for Abel I did not get any points and neither the enemy did. I got the 100 points for not reducing to ashes CAIN and only 50 points for ABEL due to the damage done. Red got 137 points for the casualties they made me, I had none against them. The Red got a bonus of 100 points for their friendly casualties, I had none.

Blue ended with 150 points against 387 points for the Red

If you read what I posted earlier about the set up parameters you will have all the answers to what could have been avoided in that scenario. Once again I started it with pleasure, it has a very good map and the landscape tends itself to numerous tactical issues. For the rest it fits perfectly to my post comments. That is too bad. I have nothing more to say

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really think that to do it in 2 hours, you have to get a thruway all the way down to CAIN, You won’t have the time to flush a coin in the bridge’s toll booth while going past ABEL at full speed while making a remake of the famous THUNDER RUN for the seizure of Baghdad.

More seriously, since I have reach, in Elite RT,theTime Limit and been able, only to take the bridgehead and the different houses around. That comprises the left and right houses and the mosque at the bridge. Then the houses along the river on the left and the taller building taken to have a good view on the road coming from CAIN. I also cleared the first few houses at the corner of the crossroad and got a tank as far as the houses all the way down the road leading to CAIN.

I lost a Scimitar as written earlier while securing the bridge and latter a track and a Challenger while clearing the corner’s houses. All my troopers casualties were mostly sustained while assaulting the taller building, since I feared that a tank counter attack might come from CAIN, that building was the place for a Javelin’s team. That is why I really felt obliged to move a little bit faster than I would have like enduring unwanted casualties.

To answer your question about the West Yard, I only kept an overwatch on it and did not feel that it was safe to get the tracks on the dirt road going through it to outflank the ABEL left side. The enemy got a pounding with snipers, mortars and Scimitar.

The right road going to ABEL is a bottleneck, but it affords a better protection and a safe passage till the curve from which, with smoke cover you can reach with 2 or 3 overbounds the bridge. That assault took place like a well rehearse drill.

It took around 1 hour to 1 hour 20 minutes to secure the bridge head and to begin to move toward the taller building. I was also diverted by the move of the units toward the bridge to prepare the subsequent assault and by the overwatch being deployed more precisely near the West Yard.

Contrarily to JN62006, I have not seen one tank and or track from the enemy, so we can definitively say that they are few A.I plans.

The British got a Minor Defeat at TLR

Blues sustained 13 KIA for 62 Reds, 21 WIA 23, 0 MIA 45, 1 Tkl 0, 2 Avl 0.

An annoying fact was that for Abel I did not get any points and neither the enemy did. I got the 100 points for not reducing to ashes CAIN and only 50 points for ABEL due to the damage done. Red got 137 points for the casualties they made me, I had none against them. The Red got a bonus of 100 points for their friendly casualties, I had none.

Blue ended with 150 points against 387 points for the Red

If you read what I posted earlier about the set up parameters you will have all the answers to what could have been avoided in that scenario. Once again I started it with pleasure, it has a very good map and the landscape tends itself to numerous tactical issues. For the rest it fits perfectly to my post comments. That is too bad. I have nothing more to say

Yeah well this mission *is* challenging, probably the timelimit being the most challenging factor. I just gave it a quick run, and I have secured the bridge and established supporting bases of fire on either side. Ive suffered about 3-4 infantry casualties and have about an hour left on the clock.

I did, however, take somewhat unrealistic risks. I attacked ABEL straight away with my initial forces instead of waiting for my armour, but I did plan my approach carefully. I almost struck disaster as my smoke screen blew away in a matter of seconds.

I recorded my effort. Not trying to steal jnt62006's thunder, in fact, it will probably be a good comparison on what to do vs what not to do (me) :D However it is possible within the time frame, but you are right, you have to take risks. If all your elements arrived just after your recon elements (especially armour), it would probably be a lot more achievable. For the record, my biggest and only gripe with CMSF are the timelimits imposed on you.

Will put a link up with the vid soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Dave Dash,

Saved your videos. I shall have a closer look at them. Seems that we all did about the same time to get to the bridge head. Actually , if I am not mistaken I went farther than you did at more or less the same time. But I got engaged in a house clearing fight and that is what I consider now, a mistake that should be avoided at all costs, if one wants to be within the time frame of the scenario. Will post some pictures of the time frame and troops advance latter.

BTW what software do you use for capturing your screen video ?

It was a good job doing the video, Dave

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Dave Dash,

Saved your videos. I shall have a closer look at them. Seems that we all did about the same time to get to the bridge head. Actually , if I am not mistaken I went farther than you did at more or less the same time. But I got engaged in a house clearing fight and that is what I consider now, a mistake that should be avoided at all costs, if one wants to be within the time frame of the scenario. Will post some pictures of the time frame and troops advance latter.

BTW what software do you use for capturing your screen video ?

It was a good job doing the video, Dave

Cheers

I use a program called Fraps. You have to purchase it if you want to record videos longer than 30 seconds, but I think it's like $8 or something. The free version can take screenshots etc. The only thing is it slows your game down a bit.

You know, a lot of missions in CMSF you just can't do them in the time allowed. It's better to just try and force a surrender in most missions, I reckon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know, a lot of missions in CMSF you just can't do them in the time allowed. It's better to just try and force a surrender in most missions, I reckon.

That is my usual policy too. The objectives simply server as markers for where concentrations of targets can be found. Slaughter enough of the opposition and they pack up; not terribly realistic but then neither are the time limits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...