Economics of missiles

[jeep]

Does anyone use missiles extensively? I never have since they are a separate tech branch that I don't focus on.

Wanted to try these out more but I think the economics might be a bit off.

damage (city) (unit) cost

V2 missile 46 20 60

Medium range missile ~60 20 65

Cruise 72 90 80

Drone 82 90 80

SRBM 400+ * 500

ICBM 450+ * 800

The nukes are fine since they will generally do > damage to the city than they cost, plus wipe out any units completely.

The drone/cruise is probably ok since they are most useful at taking out ships. They are very flexible and can quickly take out transports etc. Hard to defend against.

The V2/MRM need adjustment. They just aren't effective since they are shorter range, take a long time to research, and don't do much damage. Probably just need to reduce the production cost only them.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[hoolaman]

I don't know, the V2 was historically an expensive waste of effort, maybe it is useful as a step to other tech, but in that case why not just make the tech cost higher and skip it completely?

When you say "City damage" what do you mean? There is population, refugees, production and improvements all in there. Maybe you could set the V2 "terror weapon" to cause a large hit of refugees for a turn or two, but very little actual physical damage?

[jeep]

Yeah, I have lumped pop/ref/prod/buildings into one number for simplicity.

Thanks for the feedback. Agree that real V2s aren't useful, but in the game they should be.

[StellarRat]

Modern missiles are highly accurate and used to destroy high value targets in the rear areas of the enemy where nothing else can reach them or the it is too dangerous for air attack. The V2 was really inaccurate and could only be described as a terror weapon similar to the SCUD missile the Iraqs used in the Gulf War. From a strategic perspective V2's should be nearly worthless.

[Brit]

I've actually been wanting to be a review of the game units and balance. The early missiles being part of that. But, yeah, from what I've heard, the V2 wasn't a very effective weapon for the cost. Although, there's no reason to necessarily stick to historical reality (though I might want to change the name of the missile), or maybe the missile can be less effective but it provides hands-on technology experience that allows for later improvements in missile technology.

[jeep]

I'm trying out these values right now

V2 : production 30

MRM : production 35

Cruise : production 70

The rest stays the same. Prob should change the V2 to just short range missile. There really isn't any point to having useless units

[Brit]

I'm trying out these values right now

V2 : production 30

MRM : production 35

Cruise : production 70

The rest stays the same. Prob should change the V2 to just short range missile. There really isn't any point to having useless units

Okay, I took a look at these today. I think you're right: the V2 Missile is underpowered for the price. I also renamed it "Short Range Missile" instead of "Missile (V2)". It didn't make sense to call it a "V2" - which is a specific historical name when I went with more generic names for everything else. I reduced the price of the Short Range Missile and the Medium Range Missile. I also made some changes to other ballistic missiles - they move slower now. This means that, unless they're launched from close-range, you can see them coming and potentially mount a counterstrike before the enemy missiles hit. This also increases the value of submarine-launched nukes, since it allows players to get closer to the target before doing a nuclear strike, leaving them with no time to counterstrike before the nukes hit.

[jeep]

I like the idea of making the BMs slower It was a problem when a sneak attack from across the world wiped out your whole army before you could do anything. Also means that long range recon really is needed to see the missiles coming.

One other thing I've been toying with is missile defense systems. Right now AA units do have some missile attack values, but since the missiles move so fast they rarely ever get a hit on them. Also with 2hp they never really take them down.

So I made all the missiles have 1hp. Haven't figured out how to change the AA attack values though. A single AA shouldn't have much chance to take down expensive ICBMs, but should be somewhat of a concern.

If your AA has an attack value of 20 verses a missile defense of 20. Attack range is 180, so assuming the missile travels ~100 through the range at a speed of 2000, does that mean 5% chance of a hit?

[Brit]

I like the idea of making the BMs slower It was a problem when a sneak attack from across the world wiped out your whole army before you could do anything. Also means that long range recon really is needed to see the missiles coming.

One other thing I've been toying with is missile defense systems. Right now AA units do have some missile attack values, but since the missiles move so fast they rarely ever get a hit on them. Also with 2hp they never really take them down.

So I made all the missiles have 1hp.

Good point.

Haven't figured out how to change the AA attack values though.

In the rules editor, you would just need to go to the AA units, change the to-hit value against Missiles.

If your AA has an attack value of 20 verses a missile defense of 20. Attack range is 180, so assuming the missile travels ~100 through the range at a speed of 2000, does that mean 5% chance of a hit?

Yes. I've toyed around with the idea of some alternate system for combat. As you outlined above, units get an attack each moment that the enemy is within range. Alternate systems would allow units to attack and have a reload rate. For example, an AA gun could fire once every turn. This would allow an AA gun to get one full attack on an incoming missile, no matter how long the missile was within range.

[jeep]

In the rules editor, you would just need to go to the AA units, change the to-hit value against Missiles.

I meant I didn't know what to change them to

Yes. I've toyed around with the idea of some alternate system for combat. As you outlined above, units get an attack each moment that the enemy is within range. Alternate systems would allow units to attack and have a reload rate. For example, an AA gun could fire once every turn. This would allow an AA gun to get one full attack on an incoming missile, no matter how long the missile was within range.

I think the current method is ok as long as you understand how it works.

Planes sort of work the second way already, correct? They get one attack at full strength then need to land to reload.

One question though: If said AA had about 5% chance to hit the missle, and there were actually 4 missiles fired through his airspace at the same time. Would he have 5% to hit each of them? ie, does he get a shot at all missiles in his airspace each combat tick or does it just choose one each tick (getting around 1% to hit each one)?

[Brit]

I meant I didn't know what to change them to

I think the current method is ok as long as you understand how it works.

Planes sort of work the second way already, correct? They get one attack at full strength then need to land to reload.

Yes.

One question though: If said AA had about 5% chance to hit the missle, and there were actually 4 missiles fired through his airspace at the same time. Would he have 5% to hit each of them? ie, does he get a shot at all missiles in his airspace each combat tick or does it just choose one each tick (getting around 1% to hit each one)?

The AA will randomly attack a missile each "tic". (There are 100 tics in a turn.) This effectively divides his attack among all the missiles.

[jeep]

Ok, that's what I thought.

Combat is basically

For each unit:

1. Each tic, unit will randomly attack one unit within range with 1% of it's full strength

2. The unit that is attacked gets a counter attack on the attacker (at 1% strength)

This means that a round of exchange between one attacking tank and two defending inf would yield:

Tank is attacked 3 times (one counter to his attack, two attacks from inf)

inf A is attacked 2 times (one counter to his attack, one attack from tank)

inf B is attacked 1 time (one counter to his attack)

Over the full round, tank is attacked 300 times and each inf about 150 times each.

Is this accurate?

A couple of other questions:

Does your unit always randomly target a unit within range or does it "prefer" the unit it was explicitly told to target? Also, does the field orders affect this (told to only attack sea targets so it won't shoot at arty in range except as counter attack)?

Does "no field orders" prevent a unit from attacking (it will only counter attack)?

An observation (if above is accurate) is that transports would actually take less damage if they didn't attack (since they are preventing the counter attack).

[Brit]

Ok, that's what I thought.

Combat is basically

For each unit:

1. Each tic, unit will randomly attack one unit within range with 1% of it's full strength

2. The unit that is attacked gets a counter attack on the attacker (at 1% strength)

Basically, yes. This also assume the counterattacking unit is within range. (For example, artillery can attack without getting a counterattack if the other unit is distant.)

This means that a round of exchange between one attacking tank and two defending inf would yield:

Tank is attacked 3 times (one counter to his attack, two attacks from inf)

inf A is attacked 2 times (one counter to his attack, one attack from tank)

inf B is attacked 1 time (one counter to his attack)

Over the full round, tank is attacked 300 times and each inf about 150 times each.

Is this accurate?

That's basically correct. The game tracks who's in combat with who and then processes combat. So, there's a Tank-InfantryA combat, and a Tank-InfantryB combat going on. Over one full round, the tank gets attacked 3 times, and each infantry gets attacked 1.5 times.

A couple of other questions:

Does your unit always randomly target a unit within range or does it "prefer" the unit it was explicitly told to target?

It's attacks get directed towards all the units it is in combat with. There is one case where this isn't the case: if a unit has combat priorities setup in the rules. For example, tactical bombers prioritize ground and sea units above other units, so it will direct all its fire against them even if there are aircraft within its combat range.

Also, does the field orders affect this (told to only attack sea targets so it won't shoot at arty in range except as counter attack)?

Depends. Units won't automatically engage in combat against all units within their combat range. If your artillery is setup to attack ships, then it will initiate combat with a ship that's within range (not necessarily all of them). When a unit processes combat, it will distribute it's attacks among the units that it is "in combat" with. So, if you had an artillery setup to attack ships, but there is an enemy tank and two destroyers within range, what would happen is that your artillery would pick out one of the ships to attack. It would only be "in combat" with that ship. If the enemy tank attacks your artillery, then your artillery will be "in combat" with one ship and the tank - and will distribute its attacks among those two units.

Does "no field orders" prevent a unit from attacking (it will only counter attack)?

Yes, the "no field orders" will prevent units from attacking, but it will counterattack.

An observation (if above is accurate) is that transports would actually take less damage if they didn't attack (since they are preventing the counter attack).

If an enemy ship attacks your transport, then your transport will be "in combat" with the enemy ship. Whether or not you targeted that enemy ship is not relevant for processing combat. However, if you don't attack him and he doesn't attack you, then your transport won't be "in combat", and will stand a better chance of surviving.

[jeep]

Thanks for the explanation.

Here is a "nice to have" suggestion to make this clear to players.

A. If you double click on your unit to bring up the description box, have a box at the bottom that shows combat data for the last turn. It would list all the units it is "in combat" with. For each unit, it would show damage delivered to and received from that unit in the last turn. You could also show the last known remaining hit points of the enemy unit. This would be a nice summary on how effective each unit is in combat. For units that were destroyed that turn, you could pause the playback while they are still on the board and double click them. For stats would be for the full turn regardless of when in the playback you look at them.