HQs in CM:Normandy

[panzermartin]

In CMSF I never bothered with HQs really. With no command delays and no clear indications whether in command or not, it seemed they made little differece, or at least didnt seem to affect my play. On the other hand I loved toying with HQs in CMx1. The command red/black lines helped a lot, and the greatest thing were the "gamey"(?) special abilities. The final push with your +2 morale Co hq, the sneaky scouting or camoed Pak with +2 stealth, the +combat for the decisive shreck round.

Another thing I miss from the old days. Would love to see some role play elements back into the game.

[YankeeDog]

role play elements

Role play elements? What role play elements exactly did you see as present in CMx1? I don't having the option to name the Company Commander, or being able to "level him up" over progressive battles...

You may not see it as easily, but HQs can definitely play a strong role in CMx2. It is true that the excellent comms of Blue forces tend to mask their effect somewhat -- it's difficult to get a Blue unit completely out of command. But try playing Red and it's a whole different story. I would expect WWII-era C2 to play much more like the Red side in CMSF.

[ChrisND]

In CMSF I never bothered with HQs really. With no command delays and no clear indications whether in command or not, it seemed they made little differece, or at least didnt seem to affect my play. On the other hand I loved toying with HQs in CMx1. The command red/black lines helped a lot, and the greatest thing were the "gamey"(?) special abilities. The final push with your +2 morale Co hq, the sneaky scouting or camoed Pak with +2 stealth, the +combat for the decisive shreck round.

Another thing I miss from the old days. Would love to see some role play elements back into the game.

Don't when they are in command? There's a green light, and a red light. Seems pretty simple to me.

That said, I'm never really sure just what the heck being in command does, so I don't really worry about it.

[panzermartin]

Well I meant role play as a more personalized army, with variable mental abilities coming into play. Normal Dude, I'm aware of the green/red light but its hard to see who is in command of who. In real time, just forget it..

[YankeeDog]

Oh, OK. "Role-play" when used in a video game context means RPG-type elements to me...

[Erwin]

I also miss the clear and obvious effects that HQ's had on the units in CM1. In CMSF it's so subtle that one doesn't see the point of C&C.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

I also miss the clear and obvious effects that HQ's had on the units in CM1. In CMSF it's so subtle that one doesn't see the point of C&C.

Again, primarily if you play as Blue with their excellent comms. In my experience with Red, it's really important to keep your commanders nearby.

[Secondbrooks]

Again, primarily if you play as Blue with their excellent comms. In my experience with Red, it's really important to keep your commanders nearby.

True. Xomms atleast enable share of data. I just wonder is there different effects of different contact modes? So does being close to HQ give more morale etc. Will green Blue squad still under perform if their only contact to their HQ is by some gadget? Naturally there's no such thing as green Blue.

Green Syrians really needs to be kept in leash of commanders and green commander are to be kept in leash of their superiors: stationing company HQ team to best spot gets real challenging often. Battalion commander must be much more tricky but i don't do battles that big. I think Veteran guys with good leadership are already almost totally independent. Ofcourse even them don't share information with each of other.

I really like the current system. It could be more like CMx1 with fact that in there you could clearly see red or black line running from HQ to it's subordinates... Made things so much easier.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Being in command can make a difference in the time it takes to call in arty for blue.

[Battlefront.com]

This issue has come up a number of times and I'm never really sure why people have such a problem understanding what C2 does. The effects are far greater than they were in CMx1, in fact. When you have C2 you don't notice what it does for you because... well... because things work as you expect.

It's real simple, guys, and is clearly spelled out in the manual (the thing with lots of words in it which give answers to most basic questions ). The primary benefit is for Spotting. Information is shared between units based on C2 efficiency. Knowing where the enemy is ranks up there as the single most important factor in the game. Therefore, obviously the more units you have that know where the enemy is, the more flexibility you have. Especially if the enemy isn't using C2 as effectively (if they even can, which Red struggles with).

The second most important thing is calling in Support. C2 effects both the possibility of getting support and the responsiveness of that support. The worse your C2 the worse your chances, or at least reaction times, are.

The third thing is Morale. Units out of C2 with their immediate HQ are less "happy" with their situation, which in turn leads to increased chances of flaking out.

Again, if you have good C2 you'll just take this stuff for granted because things work as best as one could hope. But break up your C2 and you're going to be at risk of negative effects. Be that something like 2nd Platoon not having the ability to call in artillery as its positions are being overrun, or something like the tanks of 3rd Platoon not automatically engaging enemy armor blowing the crap out of 1st Platoon because they aren't aware the enemy is there. And of course having Squads flake out because they don't know who is in command isn't a good thing.

Now, it is true we don't have flashing lights and big "BZZZZZT" sounds when you click on Support and can't connect. There's no laughing face icon instead of a "?" when the unit you select would be able to target it if C2 were there. We don't have Squads yell out "Oh for the love of God! If only the LT was here we'd keep on fighting!". So it is true that the effects are more subtle than they could be, but I think the way it is now is much better

One thing is true... Blue is a spoiled rotten player. It is very, very hard to break C2 coms by accident with Blue. Even enemy action usually doesn't impact C2 much most of the time. Therefore, Blue does not often experience much, if any, degradation of capabilities based on C2 loss. After all, Blue's nations have spent trillions of Dollars over 70 years to have this sort of capability, so why not enjoy it?

Steve

[ChrisND]

We don't have Squads yell out "Oh for the love of God! If only the LT was here we'd keep on fighting!".

Isn't that the other way around?

[Pvt. Ryan]

I've noticed that blue looses C2 when the commander is in a vehicle and his subordinates are outside and vice-versa.

[Thomm]

The primary benefit is for Spotting.

My personal opionion is that those benefits for spotting (whatever they may be) do not justify giving attention to maintaining an intact C2 network.

This would change radically, if, e.g. we were allowed to target question markers.

I am not claiming that I have any great ideas at the moment, and I think this has been discussed in detail already, but the effects of C2 on spotting seem negligible to me.

I shall have to run appropriate tests when I find the time.

Best regards,

Thomm

[slug88]

This would change radically, if, e.g. we were allowed to target question markers.

This! Also I dream of some way to make units automatically target the question marks with suppressive fire. You could add another state order similar to 'Hide' or 'Deploy Weapon', maybe call it 'Weapons Free'. And then for example you can set a machine gun team to weapons free, and they'll automatically open up on any possible contacts in their LOF. With this functionality, maintaining C2 links would be extremely advantageous for covering assaults and the like. The way it is now, I do it as much for role playing purposes as I do for actual gameplay benefit.

[Thomm]

Here is the definite thread on the subject:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=85721

Best regards,

Thomm

[Secondbrooks]

Therefore, Blue does not often experience much, if any, degradation of capabilities based on C2 loss. After all, Blue's nations have spent trillions of Dollars over 70 years to have this sort of capability, so why not enjoy it?

I protest! Straight from manual:

This should not be surprising since

the US military has spent many billions of dollars over many

decades to achieve this advantage.

However this was my most important thing to ask for:

Like any sort of chain, the Chain of Command is only as strong as

its weakest C2 link. Having all three methods available to a

unit at the same time allows for the best possible results, while

having none at all means a break in the Chain of Command. A

break means the higher and lower parts of the chain are no

longer connected and therefore unable to communicate with

each other. This can have disastrous game results.

Underline by me. To me this says that different methods have different effects in different volume. Sadly however manual isn't anymore precise. Only thing i dare to guess is that gadgets don't deliver such morale boost as physical presence of platoon commander. But is that right conclusion?

[Martin Krejcirik]

I agree with others that the effects of C2 and also morale are close to nil in CMSF. What would help, IMO, if we were allowed to target the question marks as a replacement to the current area fire order. And the area fire order should be reimplemented with order delay, based on C2 (if another unit can see the enemy on that action spot) and higher spread (if the enemy unit is completely unspotted).

In the current system it is very easy to cheat the relative spotting by the area fire.

[Ryujin]

I agree with steve that the effects are there, they're just hard to notice. You either have perfect C2 as the BLUFOR (Radios, GPS, BFT, near impossible to be out of C2) and REFOR with next to no C2. I have notice REDFOR units with no C2 are more likely to '!' under fire. However vs BLUFOR they tend to die so fast it doesn't get to that point... CM:A or RED vs RED can highlight the C2 effects a bit more.

Orders delay is a tricky subject as the player is every leader on their side. So how do you judge where the order is coming from? Does a tank need a command from the PL to bob up and down out of a hull down position? The question is where do you draw the line of initiative vs orders from above? A long orders delay because the radio was damaged on my tank may not make sense for more than half of the "orders" I give them. You have to micromanage and order them to do things they would be doing on their own.

[Martin Krejcirik]

Orders delay is a tricky subject as the player is every leader on their side. So how do you judge where the order is coming from? Does a tank need a command from the PL to bob up and down out of a hull down position? The question is where do you draw the line of initiative vs orders from above?

I look at it this way: Is it urgent action or not ? If the unit is aware of the enemy unit (either spotted it itself or got the information from the others), than it is urgent and it can react immediately. But if they have no idea about the enemy, it takes some time to decide what to do and what exactly to target. Imagine 30 seconds it takes the squad leader or TC to make a decision. Obviously, the delay should be counted from the time the player places the order, not from the point of execution, like in CMx1. So your hull down pop up scenario would work if you put a pause before movement.

[Erwin]

For what it's worth I have played a lot of Red side in CMSF, (playing Road to Dinas right now), and I STILL don't have a clear idea of what penalties my units have when not in CC with an HQ. For a game, it's too subtle compared to CM1 imo.

[GSX]

Thinking about the command thing, for Normandy, as I agree with others that modern troops, especially Blue have very good comms.

Would it be possible to have the floating unit Icon change colour, say gray out, when the unit is out of command for Normandy? This would give an obvious on screen unit reference for all of your units at once. This would be very handy for RT play as you often have other things to worry aboutinstead of clicking on each unit. I see it working as the coloured lines in the CM-1 games.

[Battlefront.com]

This harkens back to old CMx1 debates. There is one school of thought that wants ridged, clearly defined variables that easy to explain, see, and put into a manual. That's a traditional wargamer point of view. The other school of thought is real life isn't so neat, so obvious, or so easy to explain. Therefore, how can one have such simplicity if one also wants realism?

One of the things people usually applaud CMx1 and CMx2 for is the "realistic feel" of combat. The primary reason for this feel is that we have a simulation which is subtle and contains tons of variables which aren't pushed down the users' throat. So yes, the effects of C2 are subtle. No, we can't easily tell you x unit in y situation has z delay. And certainly we're not going to start posting equations because that doesn't help anybody.

Now, the alternative is we could make things "gamey" so the effects are extremely noticeable, easy to describe, and even easier to predict. But I am sure if we did that the overall impact on the game would be decidedly negative. Very negative. Therefore, we're not going to do that

What people fail to understand here is that you're only playing the game one way and commenting on how it plays as if you really know how it would play another way. Play the same scenario with the lowest level of difficulty (no Fog of War) and then play it again with the highest setting. Try it again with the highest setting and your HQs killed off. I doubt very much you'll come back and tell me it played almost the same. Especially if the scenario is not a flat, featureless battle.

One of the things which is obviously under appreciated is that the speed in which "?" appear is only one part of C2 information sharing. The other part is the speed in which the "?" changes into a targetable unit. Worse your C2, the longer this takes.

Another thing that keeps getting lost in these discussions is about Support. This is a critical component of Blue's capabilities. The effects of broken C2 can't get any more dramatic than not being able to call in Support, can it? I mean, even though we don't have a big flashing icon screaming the obvious, can't you tell that this is "bad"? Seems pretty obvious to me.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Keep in mind that "?" icons are not simply there for decoration. Therefore, when your units spot something enough to get a "?" the more input a particular unit gets, the better quality that info is, the greater the chances are:

1. The "?" will represent an actual unit in that place and not something that was there or never was there.

2. Makes the TacAI aware and therefore gives it some (admittedly limited) ability to take the possible enemy position into account when performing a TacAI function.

3. Gives the unit some information to pass on to other units, which in turn add their own information to the mix. Eventually a sort of "triangulation" happens where enough observers are paying attention from enough vantage points that...

4. ... the "?" turns into a solid discernible enemy unit.

It's really, really simple... the more eyes you have out there the better. The more the information the eyes gather is passed around, the better. The opposite is also true.

Are these effects subtle? Well, in a way they are because they are context sensitive. To really know how much the Relative Spotting is doing for a particular unit in a particular circumstance you would need to repeat the IDENTICAL situation without FoW or with a broken C2 link. And of course the more simplistic the situation the less effect C2 is going to have.

For example, if you are playing a 2 Platoon vs. 2 Platoon battle on an open map... C2 is going to be almost completely irrelevant in terms of spotting information. Still required for Support calls, still important for keeping units' Morale up, but not very important for targeting. Which is entirely realistic.

This is not to say we can't make improvements. I think we can. One long time suggestion, which won't happen for Normandy, is having the equivalent of CMx1's "Command Lines". Maybe not lines per se (we have discussed various options), just something that tells the user "these units are organizationally connected, but are/aren't connected by C2". The information is already in the game, however there is no easy way to get a bird's eye view of connectivity. We had hoped to fix this for Normandy but the idea was part of a much larger design that was too big for now and had to be put off until the next Family makes its debut.

Steve

[dan/california]

I will wager that t his problem mostly goes away with Normandy. The multi billion dollar tech investment Steve is referring to won't be there. And units on both sides will be subject to a lot less instantaneous vaporization. This will allow C2 to have a great deal more weight in a visible manner.

The remaining issues, and this is entirely my own opinion, are related to the fact that many of the features in the C2 system are designed to handle multi-player CO-op, and won't really shine until that gets done.

A more realistic system of order delays in a single player game requires better AI than we are going to get anytime soon. Sorting out what a unit can do instantly, and what is subject to a delay is an infinitely large can of worms.

[Ryujin]

The remaining issues, and this is entirely my own opinion, are related to the fact that many of the features in the C2 system are designed to handle multi-player CO-op, and won't really shine until that gets done.

Is multiplayer coop in the works? Personally I haven't heard anything about it, did I miss something?

But yeah, once TAC gets very, very good you could in theory have real C2. You play the company (or whatever is the highest commander) and just give orders to your immediate subordinates. But I think it would be very, very different from CM as we know it, much more hands off and fluid. Commanding people from ground level is a very different experience.

As it stands, it's probably best to not go with delays as they tend to feel very arbitrary. Leaving C2 to spotting and moral is probably for the best.

At the moment it seems to just be a shortage of user feedback ingame and with out a lot of feedback people get different impressions of what they think is happening. Though now it's not as simple as yes/no for C2, so I'm wondering if there could be some sort of color coding for the "strength" of the C2 link? Maybe add another box for 'C2' that goes from black-red-yellow-green to show the C2 link. Or maybe click on a HQ and all the subordinate units somehow show up color coded (either unit icon color or say a indicator next to it). It's not an easy fix I geus.