Latest Driver from Nvidia

[Redwolf]

I see it now.

There also is the "nvnews.net" forum which is also useful for sorting out bugs, at least when it comes to Unix drivers. They have some of the developers there.

[Redwolf]

The link is two posts above yours, Redwolf. And DX10 or 9 or whichever makes no difference since CMSF uses OpenGL, which is what is broken in nVidia drivers.

What I am asking is are the 256 broken if you use XP and/or a DX9 card.

There is no way to predict whether it is or not, OpenGL or not.

[stoex]

Ah, I see. That one I have no answer to. I use Win7 and a GeForce 8800 GTS card (with DX10) and I have the flashing bug, other configurations I know nothing about.

Sorry, the way you asked it wasn't clear what you meant.

[Zatoichi]

Hi Redwolf, yes, I'm afraid any NVIDIA driver after the 186 series has an issue with OpenGL, regardless of your operating system. So the 256 drivers will have the same issue with flashing in low light scenarios, and unfortunately this is set to continue unless NVIDIA decide to fix it.

Back when ATI cards were causing all sorts of problems with CMSF, I switched over to NVIDIA - it's just my luck that literally within a month of me swapping cards, ATI fixed their bug and NVIDIA introduced the flashing problem. Bah.

[jcmil]

I've added a post to your NVIDIA forum thread - for whatever it's worth!

Every little bit helps.

Its been 12 months by my estimate since the 186.xx was superseded & this error introduced - about time it was fixed.

BTW I'm using 9800 so it's looking pretty generic throughout the range of GPUs. Whole reason I dumped ATI was nvidias UDA, now it's biting me in the a**

My other concern here is how are CM:N & future games going to be impacted....?

[jcmil]

In something of a fluke moment during a whole lot of experiments I seem to have isolated something that returns the lighting to more localized activity. (nHancer profile attached in zip below)

See screenie for open GL settings.

I don't think its 100% & I suspect I have lost quality noticeably.

However the BFC crew may be able to identify which things are causing the issue with this as a starting point.

Notably I installed nHancer when the driver was version 186.91 & made a profile. Then the driver was updated without uninstalling the existing driver to current 258 & I activated the profile manually prior to loading the game.

Anyway it's something to play with...

cmsf.zip

[Volltreffer]

Now im having the same damn problem... I hadnt played CM:SF for ages which probably explains me not noticing the lighting issue on newer Nvidia Drivers earlier.

I have played around with going back to older drivers - but regardless of this I seem to get a crash at a certain point into the game (say 20mins into the battle) then it crashes to a black screen with the sound stuck in limbo... I then have to restart the PC........ VERY FRUSTRATING.

I have noticed varying degrees of the same problem however.

The light given off by exploding Arty rounds gives off a realistic flash over the battlefield and buildings - whereas a simple burst of machine gun fire can light up the whole map like a christmas tree (light on buildings in particular).

I have an Nvidia GTX 280 - what is the best driver to try out (I cannot remember which one I was using when CM:SF worked flawlessly).

I know the 180.XX Drivers have been mentioned here, but is there specific one that people are using that is working seamlessly (if thats possible).

I have been only having these crashes to black screen in games and not in other programs - so I assume its driver related and not my Graphics Card.

[jcmil]

GeForce Forceware 259.31 The NVIDIA developer site shows a new driver today. Please consider this driver BETA. Windows driver version 259.31 and Linux drivers version 256.38.03 provide full support for OpenGL 4.1 and GLSL 4.10 on capable hardware. This driver also supports several new OpenGL extensions for both 4.1-capable GPUs and older GPUs.

Just found these which I am going to try - GL support sounds promising...maybe someone read the complaints...

Volltreffer186.91 worked perfectly for me on my 9800 - also fine on other newer games but I think one may miss the specific optimizations made for newer games with an older driver.

[jcmil]

Update

259.31 works with the nHancer profile above. (Without it we're back to global flashes) I have managed to bring the image quality back up with no noticeable FPS loss.

So its not all bad news...

Edit

Enabled forced DXT3 in optimizations, & upped to GL version 3.0 & it's looking pretty good to me now.

(Still using a manually activated profile loaded before the game starts up.)

Anyone like to match settings & confirm it's OK for them too?

[Sergei]

That's interesting - you have fixed the issue on your computer? I tried loading the driver version above and using the nHancer profile, but I still get the flashing. Either I'm doing it wrong or that plan really requires first installing Geforce 18x.xx or it's one of the great unsolvable mysteries of mankind along with why JFK was murdered or why is my head hurting so and who drank all the beer in the fridge and hey who has puked all over the couch???

[jcmil]

Don't know that its 100% but it's better & more localized.

See the 2 min in-game video of a spin round a quick battle fought in dusk urban environment.

12mb avi & slightly altered profile 7 zipped.

Sergei

Had a clean install of 186.91 then nHancer, set up the profile. (Used Driver Sweeper to clean the old drivers out completely, in safe mode.)

Installed the latest driver (& since then the latest beta.) straight 'on top' of existing driver.

Presumably as the settings are already written (in the registry as switches?) they stay put. You can then play around with the settings under the later drivers - no multiple re-installs req'd.

Notably I can deactivate the profile & go back to global flashes. Activating the profile manually then brings back localized effects (requires nHancer to be closed & restarted if you have turned the profile settings off).

Surely someone will now be able to see which OGL switch needs setting to overcome the nvidia driver failings....?

[Volltreffer]

Well my system is off getting a clean up and an install of Windows 7 - 64 bit (I had Vista before)...

Not that this will solve the problem, but hopefully I can start playing around with getting it to work come the weekend...

Its like having your infantry setting off 1 million megawatt strobe-lights each time they fire - talk about ruining immersion...

[jcmil]

Volltreffer suggest you start with the 186 drivers & get a profile set from there to work on.

The later drivers (I think) drop some needed registry entries. If you put earlier drivers in they will write those values so nHancer can call them - thats my theory anyway.

[jcmil]

Any feedback guys? :confused:

Does my mod via nHancer look like its working?

[CptWasp]

Any news here?

[TheMinistry]

I currently have a brand new Nvidia 460 GTX and am using the latest drivers. This weird lighting issue during night scenarios still exist

I didn't have that when I used a 180.something driver for my Nvidia 8800 GT.

Since going back to an older driver is no longer an option for me, I'll just keep my fingers crossed...

I understand there is nothing Battlefront can do?

[phil stanbridge]

I've got the same card and the same problem. If BFC used DirectX rather than OpenGL maybe it could be fixed. I've no idea what that involves however. I am also getting hard crashes with mine - have you had any serious crashes? It's stable with other games however, so it suggests it is this game rather than my card/system. I hope to god something is different when Normandy is released!!

[rune]

Phil,

Going to disagree with you. It is not the game, as it doesn't happen to older cards, which means the game IS coded to the opengl standard. The problem is the nvidia drivers aren't 100% compatible with the opengl standard.

Changing to directx would require almost a complete rewrite of the engine, I know you aren't going to see that. It is also the reason you don't see the problem with other games, betting the majority are directx.

TheMinistry, correct, there is not much battlefront can do other then to program to the standard. If they attempt to fix it, and nvidia changes code, they would wind up breaking the game again and again. Code to the standard and hope nvidia fixes the problem.

Last, nope, the engine is coded to the opengl standard, that will not change with normandy. Hopefully nvidia will fix the issue or at least eliminate the crashes for you by then.

Rune

[phil stanbridge]

Rune, thanks very much for the reply.

The problem is, people upgrade their systems. Now there's plenty of other older games out there that work fine with the 460, and other Nvidia/ATI cards. Is BFC going to tell people to stop upgrading their systems if they want the true 100% experience because doesn't work for me. Is this going to be an issue with Normandy and future titles because it's a nightmare if it is. I can't see how BFC will be comfortable with this, providing a service that might only 'half' work if you follow. I know you are going to disagree with that, but that's how I feel. I absolutely love the series, and I want to remain a loyal customer, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels like this. I realise as you say, Nvidia is to blame, but BFC should be addressing this issue directly, not just accepting it.

I feel loathed to spend my money if nothing can be done. What are we supposed to do in the mean time, downgrade and stop using the machine for every other game I've got?

Furthermore, I've recently installed SF and other modules on a completely different machine with an Intel 4500HD chipset and guess what, that doesn't work properly either

Edit: Just added my support to the Nvidia forum..

[Guest]

Is this going to be an issue with Normandy and future titles because it's a nightmare if it is. I can't see how BFC will be comfortable with this, providing a service that might only 'half' work if you follow. I know you are going to disagree with that, but that's how I feel. I absolutely love the series, and I want to remain a loyal customer, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels like this. I realise as you say, Nvidia is to blame, but BFC should be addressing this issue directly, not just accepting it.

How should they address it, Phil? They've done everything any company in their position can do - contacted Nvidia, looked for workarounds, and provided support for effected users. You see Schrullenhaft out here every day fielding questions about this.

Empire: Total War had a problem with disappearing models on some Nvidia cards using newer drivers. The company that made it, Creative Assembly, works for SEGA and has conservatively twenty or thirty times the resources that BFC does. They couldn't find a "fix". In fact the problem wasn't fixed - by Nvidia - until more than a year after the game was released. They, too, were accused of "accepting" the problem, when in fact they'd put many programmers on finding a fix - I was there talking to one of their development leads around the time Napoleon: Total War was released, and he confirmed they'd hunted in vain for a fix.

What can BFC do that Creative Assembly can't?

Furthermore, I've recently installed SF and other modules on a completely different machine with an Intel 4500HD chipset and guess what, that doesn't work properly either

My 4500HD works fine. My development laptop has one and I use it to play CM every day. Make sure your drivers, in this case, are up to date. What problems are you having?

[TheMinistry]

I've got the same card and the same problem. If BFC used DirectX rather than OpenGL maybe it could be fixed. I've no idea what that involves however. I am also getting hard crashes with mine - have you had any serious crashes? It's stable with other games however, so it suggests it is this game rather than my card/system. I hope to god something is different when Normandy is released!!

No, no crashes so far.

[phil stanbridge]

How should they address it, Phil? They've done everything any company in their position can do - contacted Nvidia, looked for workarounds, and provided support for effected users. You see Schrullenhaft out here every day fielding questions about this.

What can BFC do that Creative Assembly can't?

My 4500HD works fine. My development laptop has one and I use it to play CM every day. Make sure your drivers, in this case, are up to date. What problems are you having?

Hi Phil - If BFC are being so proactive about it and there is nothing further they can do for now - that's fine but they need to let people know they are on the case. At the end of the day there will be more and more people suffering these problems. I presume the powers that be are aware of this? Maybe they could eventually develop in Directx instead. I say that tongue in cheek, but the bottom line is, if BFC want to keep releasing quality products then this will be a constant headache for them. Nip it in the bud perhaps? Nvidia probably don't want to know for a number of reasons. I don't know how they work - but I'd imagine BFC is a relatively small player (no disrespect intended) and SF is based on 2007 tech after all.

Empire Total War is a massive resource hog, and has many separate issues, SF only has a few

As for the 4500HD that's very interesting. I am using the latest Intel drivers, on a Win7 x64 build. I suffer bad blurring on the text/GUI and I can't get rid of it - it's not a show stopper, but it's very distracting. I'd love to know what's different.

[Guest]

Hi Phil - If BFC are being so proactive about it and there is nothing further they can do for now - that's fine but they need to let people know they are on the case. At the end of the day there will be more and more people suffering these problems. I presume the powers that be are aware of this?

They were on the case when this was first reported a long, long time ago. Yes, they're aware of it. Have they just sat back and let it go on without trying to find a workaround? No. But understandably they have other priorities as well - making games, for instance. I'm hopeful they'll come up with something, but development time - again, for something that could be fixed by Nvidia next week if they got off their butts! - is limited.

Maybe they could eventually develop in Directx instead. I say that tongue in cheek, but the bottom line is, if BFC want to keep releasing quality products then this will be a constant headache for them. Nip it in the bud perhaps? Nvidia probably don't want to know for a number of reasons. I don't know how they work - but I'd imagine BFC is a relatively small player (no disrespect intended) and SF is based on 2007 tech after all.

As I recall, the Empire: Total War problem WAS a DirectX problem. You can't predict what driver creators will break.

Empire Total War is a massive resource hog, and has many separate issues, SF only has a few

Yes. Does this - or CA's size - change the fact that Creative Assembly couldn't "fix" or force Nvidia to fix the (much more serious) problem they were having? No. The only reason it was fixed was that Nvidia reworked a part of the driver pipeline for DX10 cards to fix a host of other problems they were having. Nvidia fixed a problem with Empire: Total War - a game that sold around a million copies if I recall - accidentally.

As for the 4500HD that's very interesting. I am using the latest Intel drivers, on a Win7 x64 build. I suffer bad blurring on the text/GUI and I can't get rid of it - it's not a show stopper, but it's very distracting. I'd love to know what's different.

I have blurring too. I thought you meant something more game-changing.

[Schrullenhaft]

Phil - on your laptop's Intel HD4500, what is your display's native resolution and what resolution do you run CMSF at ? Are you using 'Desktop' as the 'Display Size' in the Options panel ? If you're using a non-native resolution for CMSF, that MIGHT account for blurry text on an LCD display. Also any 'anti-aliasing' setting may blur text.

As you understand it is NOT possible for us to re-code the graphics engine in DirectX at this point. OpenGL has the benefit of possibly being used on the Mac, if and when we are able to support that option. Unfortunately in the Windows World DirectX is king and most developers use it as their graphics API and thus most video chip manufacturers center their driver development on it. In the case of AMD/ATI and Nvidia, it does take quite a bit of time for them to figure out certain bugs in their OpenGL drivers. They typically concentrate their resources on bugs seen in the big games, but even then it takes them time to address some of the issues.

Since we are such a small player in terms of the overall market that drives high-end video card sales, we definitely have less pull in getting Nvidia's attention to resolve certain problems. We and our customers have notified Nvidia about the issue, but there's little we can do to motivate a fix from Nvidia. The closest solution MAY be to have an option to disable the Dynamic Lighting system, however that will not be available for CMSF, but POSSIBLY for CM:N. Of course that ruins a bit of the immersion factor, but it may be our only recourse until Nvidia fixes their driver bug.

New hardware usually shouldn't be a problem. The problem comes when there is a bug in the drivers and newer hardware can only use those newer drivers. Your particular issue seems to be a bit odd since other GTX 460 users haven't complained of it (to my knowledge). However it does seem fairly similar to an AMD/ATI OpenGL bug of last year where the game would crash. In that case the Catalyst drivers had a memory leak in their texture management for OpenGL. CMSF would crash between 5-20 minutes of starting it up.

Regarding the crashes you're experiencing, are you using the 'default' settings in the Nvidia Control Panel's 3D Management section ? Are you using any anti-aliasing settings ? Is your 'Extension Limit' set to 'OFF' ?

[phil stanbridge]

Thanks to you both for the replies. See, this is a definite plus when the customer service is so good.

I didn't realise the dynamic lighting has been a problem for so long - times flies. That's even more worrying really as it does suggest Nvidia couldn't care less about it. Do you know of any other game with the same type of problem? In fact, I can't think of another game coded in Open GL. Maybe Red Orchestra, but I don't know what made me think that..

I personally find the blurring quite a distraction on my little screen - I've got a dell Vostro with a 12" lcd. It's a powerful laptop however, with 4gb ram, a decent intel cpu and the 4500HD.

Schrullenhaft, interesting, I run SF using desktop resolution in the options but I have just noticed the native res isn't supported ! (1280x800). Maybe this accounts for the distortion. However, even when selecting 'desktop' display size it still doesn't fix it. Not sure if this can be fixed.

There's only one other chap with the 460, and he hasn't reported any crashes, but then maybe he hasn't played it for as long as I have Curiously, the British module would crash quite a lot for me - I've not had one lock so far replaying the Marines campaign.

No AA but I am using AF. Extension Limit is OFF (desktop pc).