Centauro Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 The phisical copy of Kursk has no manual inside. THAT should be said when a product is advertized and sold. For the sake of clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 What? The only reason I paid extra was for a printed manual. Are you sure about this? I'm certain you should have had a printed manual with a boxed copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molotov_billy Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 It's 12 pages. Mostly credits and how to install the game. It's not the PDF manual. Pretty underhanded on BFC's part, there was no mention made that the physical "manual" would be any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centauro Posted March 17, 2010 Author Share Posted March 17, 2010 Read the other thread. There is a tiny manual. Maybe 8-10 pages are really useful. I still cant believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Oh dear that's very sad That will probably make me reconsider further boxed copies to be honest. I remember the days when you could buy a boxed copy of Combat Mission with a decent large manual, jewel cases, maps etc. It's very sad, but maybe a sign of the times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulverisor64 Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 I got my physical copy yesterday. I can't see how "the manual" could be made as an additional selling point. That is very cheesy advertising. It got me hooked. This is not the game manual, it is in PDF. That is the last time I will buy an additional CD copy. I too remember Combat Mission's manual which was a true manual. Shame on you for pulling one over on the faithful people who pre-ordered. Please do not use gimmicks like this again!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bomberburn Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 I can't beleive this either. There was a normal manual included with Afirca 1943. Thats too bad that they're not doing that for Kursk. They should have listed it as a Mini Manual because of its small size and not make it sound like a full size one like was included in the other Theatre of War games. I'm glad I heard about this before I decided to order, I'm going to rethink things now. Instead of reducing what comes with hard copies they should do the opposite like Empire Total War did by offering a Special edition or collectors edition which would have more stuff, such as exclusive content for the game(units or maps, or missions) printed campaign maps, additional historical information(documentaries) mini strategy guide and yes a real game manual. As I did for Empire Total War by getting their Special Forces edition I would have also for Theatre of War 2 by spending extra money for a special edition, if there was one, with included additional stuff. Not just a few pages of how to install the game and calling that a maunual. I'm sure there would be others out there that would pay additional for a collectors edition of Theatre of War 2 Kursk 1943 if there was one with exclusive content. I hope the developers keep this in mind for future releases of other battles.(maybe the Western Front?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Sorry to hear that you guys feel "cheated". It certainly wasn't our intention to mislead anyone. Unlike previous manuals which were designed by us, the print and PDF versions were supplied by 1C this time around. Not that it makes any difference of course. We have learned from the last "misunderstanding" about physical goods (where people complained that the CM British Forces module came without a manual) and added an info bar to each product page since then, to make it more clear what is and what isn't included. I guess we're going to add page counts for the next releases. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Perhaps this kind of publication should be called "leaflet" or something to distinguish it from a full manual. One thing is for sure: I shall never throw away my wargame manuals, starting with the one from CC2. I also remember the CM:BB one standing proudly on my shelf ... Best regards, Thomm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Thomm, it's more or less a matter of how many people are willing to pay extra for this kind of manual. We're certainly willing to design and print it, but if the majority of people then decides to "download only", it's simply not sustainable. I would hope that for big releases such as the upcoming CM Normandy we're going to get the critical mass of people interested to make one of those monster manuals again Right now the info icons on the product pages say simply "Manual yes" and "Manual no". We'll add "abbreviated" or something like that to distinguish it from a big size manual I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyR Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Perhaps, simply if the manual in the box isn't the pdf manual, then it shouldn't be advertised as manual...make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molotov_billy Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Thomm, it's more or less a matter of how many people are willing to pay extra for this kind of manual. We're certainly willing to design and print it, but if the majority of people then decides to "download only", it's simply not sustainable. Well, I for one feel better now knowing that it was our fault all along. Thanks for the clarification? Did anyone else see a reduced price now that BFC isn't doing manuals? I thought I paid full price. Weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Perhaps, simply if the manual in the box isn't the pdf manual, then it shouldn't be advertised as manual...make sense? Not really. The 20 page printed manual is a portion of the manual that is on PDF. The PDF manual (and the accompanying other manuals for the editors for example) are all "manuals" in their own right. But we'll make it more clear in the future how much of it is printed, as I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 But I thought we were supposed to be getting a 'exclusive' and limited edition printed manual. By that, I had expected a decent manual like what has been seen before. Not 20 pages. That's the reason I paid extra! I feel a bit cheated by this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Well, I for one feel better now knowing that it was our fault all along. Thanks for the clarification? Did anyone else see a reduced price now that BFC isn't doing manuals? I thought I paid full price. Weird. You're welcome. We are not "not doing manuals". Not sure where you got that from. The cost to print a small run of a short manual is about the same as the cost to print a large (several thousand copies large) run of a bigger manual. You're paying the same price because it costs us the same amount of money. Not weird at all but logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 But I thought we were supposed to be getting a 'exclusive' and limited edition printed manual. By that, I had expected a decent manual like what has been seen before. Not 20 pages. That's the reason I paid extra! I feel a bit cheated by this. Understood, and as I said earlier in this thread: Sorry to hear that you guys feel "cheated". It certainly wasn't our intention to mislead anyone. Unlike previous manuals which were designed by us, the print and PDF versions were supplied by 1C this time around. Not that it makes any difference of course. We have learned from the last "misunderstanding" about physical goods (where people complained that the CM British Forces module came without a manual) and added an info bar to each product page since then, to make it more clear what is and what isn't included. I guess we're going to add page counts for the next releases. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centauro Posted March 17, 2010 Author Share Posted March 17, 2010 Right now the info icons on the product pages say simply "Manual yes" and "Manual no". We'll add "abbreviated" or something like that to distinguish it from a big size manual I think. After buying TWO, TOW2 and the Centauro add-on and always finding a good manual, now I feel so stupid for not reading "inside" icons (rolleyes). I feel like a customer who has no time to read small sentences in a contract. Do I feel cheated? No. Do I feel stupid? Yes. Do I feel Battlefront is changing and becoming like others smart developers? Yes. Will I buy a physical copy again? God, no. Forget it and my money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nokturnal Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Wow, so much outrage just due to a manual not being what you had hoped. I can see where you are all coming from, i too bought the pre-order and was expecting a large manual, from what i've read here i may be dissapointed. However, the GAME is what i wanted and what i paid for, not the manual. I realise some got the pre-order purely for the manual, and that might make them feel as if they wasted the extra $$$ But is a little coloured booklet being smaller than expected really worth all the complaints and hatred? Does the company not produce good games that you enjoy playing? Or are you only here for the pretty booklets? (note the indicates an attempt at humour..) Personally i only got the pre-order so i could get the game on pre-order, the manual was a bonus. If it doesn't live up to my expectations it won't make me feel cheated or not want to purchase from the company again, maybe i'll just stick to buying the digital versions if i don't want to spend as much money next time. I buy games from Battlefront (or 1C) because i prefer the direction they take, realistic features, alot of replayability, WWII settings and so on. If you think about it, that's why you all come here too, for the games. So take it on the chin, learn your lesson and by all means keep giving your opinions on the matter - Just don't crucify the company for one issue, or maybe in the future we won't even have a manual to complain about, pdf or physical. Alot of other developers have already given up on even releasing a manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebtje Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Greetings Fellows ToW2 : Kursk 1943 forum members, I just got my copy of the game today and I was a little disappointed by the one print run "manual" in the box. I am waiting for a new computer and my laptop can't handle the game. My idea was to read the manual before I get the new PC. I like paper manual and it is a pleasure for me to read them, away from the computer. Ok, I will print the PDF by myself and make my own Hardcover of the manual, it is not a big deal but the teaser on battlefront.com make me believe it was include in the box. I accept to pay 10$ or 20$ more for a great printed manual, a map of the operation etc... Anyway, the game look so great I can't wait to play it as soon as possible!!! Kind regards, s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulverisor64 Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Wow, so much outrage just due to a manual not being what you had hoped. I can see where you are all coming from, i too bought the pre-order and was expecting a large manual, from what i've read here i may be dissapointed. However, the GAME is what i wanted and what i paid for, not the manual. I realise some got the pre-order purely for the manual, and that might make them feel as if they wasted the extra $$$ But is a little coloured booklet being smaller than expected really worth all the complaints and hatred? Does the company not produce good games that you enjoy playing? Or are you only here for the pretty booklets? (note the indicates an attempt at humour..) Personally i only got the pre-order so i could get the game on pre-order, the manual was a bonus. If it doesn't live up to my expectations it won't make me feel cheated or not want to purchase from the company again, maybe i'll just stick to buying the digital versions if i don't want to spend as much money next time. I buy games from Battlefront (or 1C) because i prefer the direction they take, realistic features, alot of replayability, WWII settings and so on. If you think about it, that's why you all come here too, for the games. So take it on the chin, learn your lesson and by all means keep giving your opinions on the matter - Just don't crucify the company for one issue, or maybe in the future we won't even have a manual to complain about, pdf or physical. Alot of other developers have already given up on even releasing a manual. Will I buy from Battlefront and IC again; absolutely. They produce games which attempt to emulate true life on the battlefield and with minor gripes they do this extremely well. Did they false advertise. "YES" This should not have been posted on the website as an extra sales feature. It says; •and you will receive the limited edition printed game manual** a couple of weeks after the release in the mail (together with your box and DVD disc of course). This says "with your box" not "in your box". This is exactly the way Battlefront sent the game manual for Combat Mission Berlin to Barbarossa, it was outside of the CD case. If you look at the online PDF manual you will see that the pages are side by side, which is absolutely set up for print in a small book. If you look at the PDF manual included with the game and setup for printing you will see that the pages do not even set up to proper size. It scales for printing in a small sized book. This obviously was set up to be printed in a real book, just like in Battlefront's previous titles and IC decided they could keep the extra money. Would I have bought the CD version if I knew it would contain only the game setup guide; perhaps. Would I have made a stink about this? Absolutely not. The whole essence of this disappointment stems from the fact that we were lied to. The game setup guide is absolutely different than the "manual". The definition of manual in previous titles has meant a literal manual. I appreciate the apologies submitted by Moon. I normally do not grudge over pages of paper with writing on them but promotion needs to match product. There are times when it is necessary to let salesmen know that we will not be fooled twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nokturnal Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 The whole essence of this disappointment stems from the fact that we were lied to. The game setup guide is absolutely different than the "manual". The definition of manual in previous titles has meant a literal manual. Sorry mate, i should of clarified my post was mainly directed at the few complaints i've seen about the manual being too small and resulting in claims to never buy from them again and so on(some on other forums too). Those who feel the wording was inappropriate/misleading well that's an entirely different complaint and seems justified. I've still not got my copy so i haven't had a look at the 'manual' however i had suspected it would be much smaller simply because the game mechanics have not changed since ToW 2: Africa, so there wouldn't be much need to repeat what had already been explained and spend the extra $$$ printing full and complete manuals. Though obviously it would of been almost a necessity for those who don't own Africa but got Kursk anyway, as the game is difficult to grasp at first. That may be why i don't feel lied to, but i can certainly see how it could be considered false advertising. I only spoke up because i like to support developers who stick to PC gaming, this seems to be a dying breed. They may of made a few mistakes here and there, but they're sticking with us and trying so i gotta love em. Anyway i shall leave the discussion to others now, my 2 (or 4) cents have been given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molotov_billy Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 You're welcome. We are not "not doing manuals". Not sure where you got that from. The cost to print a small run of a short manual is about the same as the cost to print a large (several thousand copies large) run of a bigger manual. You're paying the same price because it costs us the same amount of money. Not weird at all but logical. ahaha. stay classy! two posts ago... oh, nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junglist Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 I buy games from Battlefront (or 1C) because i prefer the direction they take, realistic features, alot of replayability, WWII settings and so on. If you think about it, that's why you all come here too, for the games. So take it on the chin, learn your lesson and by all means keep giving your opinions on the matter - Just don't crucify the company for one issue, or maybe in the future we won't even have a manual to complain about, pdf or physical. Alot of other developers have already given up on even releasing a manual. Fair enough. I am happy to support any company that is still attempting to make realistic war games. That's why Battlefront and 1C will always be on my radar, but I will stick to digital downloads from here on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulverisor64 Posted March 19, 2010 Share Posted March 19, 2010 I only spoke up because i like to support developers who stick to PC gaming, this seems to be a dying breed. They may of made a few mistakes here and there, but they're sticking with us and trying so i gotta love em. I too would like to see makers of quality games like this to flourish. I pre-ordered this game for my brother and myself. I advertised this game heavily on a war gaming website I enjoy. Which by the way I could have drawn the ire of this community because I suggested that pre-order would be the only opportunity to get the manual. That proved to not be an issue as my posts were largely ignored. Perhaps the makers of this game could make it up to us by writing a good strategy guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeeman Posted March 19, 2010 Share Posted March 19, 2010 yep, I totally would have opted for no physical copy pre release and saved us both some printing, cough, and shsiping charrges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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