REVS Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 A journalist friend of mine (not a military historian at all) is researching a story regarding an RAF flyer who flew Sunderlands on reconnaissance missions in Norway in April 1940. I don't know that much about WWII aircraft, and I was at first surprised that Sunderlands would even be used, but apparently they were chosen for their long range. Our RAF boy's Sunderland was shot down by ME109s, which came as no surprise to me... So these are my questions generally. Any good websites on WWII reconnaissance planes you can point me towards? And how long did Sunderlands last in the reconnaissance role, and what replaced them? In anticipation of Groggish assistance from GF denizens, many thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 have you a more specific date in April 1940? http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1940/1940%20-%201345.html MAY 9, 1940 Flight Magazine ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE RAF. TO DATE April 2, 1940.—Sunderland successfully drove off six attacking Junkers Ju 88s. April 3, 1940.—First Spitfire crashed in sea off English coast. April 4, 1940.—Wilhelmshaven raided. Damage believed done. April 9, 1940.—Bombers attacked German ships in Bergen fjord. April 10, 1940.—Sixteen Skuas dive-bombed cruisers at Bergen. Three direct hits claimed. Dornier brought down in thirty-five seconds by Hudson in North Sea. April 11, 1940.—Torpedo-borabers sunk destroyer at Trondhjem. Stavanger aerodrome bombed. April 13, 1940.—Ships at Bergen bombed. April 15, 1940.—Stavanger bombed again. April 16, 1940.—Bergen bombed again. One transport and one submarine sunk. Trondhjem bombed. April 18, 1940.—Seven attacks delivered on Stavanger to date. April 20, 1940.—Aalborg, in Denmark, bombed. Also Stavanger and Krtstiansand. April 22-23, 1940.—Aerodromes at Oslo bombed. Also Aalborg again. April 23-24, 1940.—Raids on Fornebu, Stavanger and Kristiansand. Aalborg (fourth time) and Westerland on Sylt also bombed. April 25, 1940,—Supply ships in Hardanger and Granvin fjords bombed. Places in Oslo fjord bombed, including oil refinery. April 26, 1940.—Blenheim attacked two Dornier flying boats. One believed crashed. Five of our machines lost in last two days. Announced that R.A.F. fighters in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namsos_Campaign Captain F. H. Pegram of the cruiser HMS Glasgow, accompanied by the Cruiser HMS Sheffield and ten destroyers, landed a small party of Royal Marines in Namsos on 14 April 1940. The landing party was under the command of Captain Edds and took up blocking positions in the hills outside town. They soon attracted German aircraft. Lieutenant General Sir Adrian Carton De Wiart, V.C., designated force commander, flew in the next day (15 April) and had a foretaste of what was to come when his Short Sunderland Flying Boat was machine gunned by German aircraft as it landed. His aide was wounded and had to return to the United Kingdom. De Wiart was an energetic and competent commander who inspired his troops by his bravery during air attacks. But no Allied aircraft were available over Namsos to provide protection against the Luftwaffe. http://www.epibreren.com/ww2/raf/204_squadron.html Traces of World War 2 RAF - No. 204 Squadron 10/05/1940 - 30/06/1940 Fatalities 01/01/1940 - 09/05/1940 (incomplete) Type: Sunderland I Serial Number: L5799, KG-D Operation: Reconnaissance Lost: 08/04/1940 Flight Lieutenant Robert P.A. Harrison, RAF 37599, 204 Sqdn., age 23, 08/04/1940, missing. Pilot Officer Ronald F. Hoskins, RAF 43152, 204 Sqdn., age 27, 08/04/1940, missing. Leading Aircraftman Albert F. Roberts, RAF 522093, 204 Sqdn., age 25, 08/04/1940, missing Leading Aircraftman Dennis S. Lloyd, RAF 547593, 204 Sqdn., age 19, 08/04/1940, missing Aircraftman 1st Class Bernard V.H. Bulmer, RAF 569834, 204 Sqdn., age 20, 08/04/1940, missing. Aircraftman 1st Class Charles A. Hughes, RAF 333908, 204 Sqdn., age 38, 08/04/1940, missing Aircraftman 1st Class Leonard J. Fowell, RAF 622095, 204 Sqdn., age 20, 08/04/1940, missing. Aircraftman 2nd Class Herbert Harrott, RAF 618068, 204 Sqdn., age unknown, 08/04/1940, missing. Aircraftman 2nd Class William H.U. Dolley, RAF 648552, 204 Sqdn., age 18, 08/04/1940, missing. Took off 10.30 hrs from Sullom Voe, tasked with a recce mission off the coast of Norway. the Sunderland failed to return after signalling an ETA 30 minutes before it was due to start the return leg and was shot down in a running dogfight with a Heinkel 111 of 1(F)./122 and crashed into the sea west of Bergen, Norway. Commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial Sources: CWGC; Ross McNeill, Coastal Command Losses of the Second World War, Volume 1 (1939-1941) http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/32/a9004132.shtml This Sunderland shot down two Ju88s April 2 / 3 April http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=84774 Sunderland crashsite in Norway........ One of these aircraft was a 210 Squadron Sunderland L2167 shot down by an ME110 of ZG76 on the 9th of April 1940 (the first day of the german invasion). http://homepage.eircom.net/~wrgi/sunderlandcla.html The Short 'Sunderland' Flying Boat Sunderlands were supplemented by Hudsons and Catalinas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affentitten Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 There is more than one meaning of reconnaissance though. Maritime reconnaissance was the Sunderland's forte because of its long range. Flying over the Atlantic and looking for subs and E-boats is quite different from taking low level shots of enemy fortifications. And don't underestimate the survivability of the Sunderland. Over Norway a single Sunderland came up against 6 Ju-88s and won. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REVS Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 Thanks Wicky and Aff, I'm learning rapidly! All your help is much appreciated, and thanks in particular for all those links, Wicky, I'm still reading through them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REVS Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 One other detail I forgot to mention. What does "flying at no height" mean? Does it mean what it sounds like – skimming the tops of the trees/mountains/ground? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssiissuu Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Flying at 'no height' could mean NOE, height. As in NOE AGL. But I only recall the term due to days long ago of playing Harpoon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REVS Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 Thanks Ssiissuu! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalins Organ Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 That's probably what it means, but can you give the context? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 As for their replacement of Sunderlands: For looking at long range targets on land I'd think the Mosquito would take over ASAP, which would be late '41. On the Naval search/patrol front the Sunderland remained in service throughout WW2 but was augmented mostly with B-24s, Catalinas and Wellingtons within Coastal Command. True replacement came with the Shackleton in the 50s, if my memory service me right. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Flying at 'no height' could mean NOE, height. As in NOE AGL. But I only recall the term due to days long ago of playing Harpoon. In dramatic contrast In short, the (Sunderland) plane was intercepted and shot down (by Mr Lent) and my grandfather was the sole survivor of the event and fell 3000ft without a parachute into the snow and a dramatic rescue was made to save him (he was blinded by the fire). There is a memorial on the mountain which the pictures above show, with parts of the plane around it (there are a few sites that show this, only Norwegian http://www.liernett.no/2473-opp-igjen) and the servicemen graves are located in a small church in a village outside Oslo. Sgt Ogwyn George was the first British Airman to be shot down in Occupied Norway and an amazing dramatic story followed which I wont go into now. http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=84774&page=2 REVS Rereading you post the RAF flyer wasn't necessarily shot down by the 109 in April 1940 - can you confirm. Have you any more specific details on your RAF flyer - Name, Squadron, where he was based, any specific dates etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mididoctors Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 a sunderland downed two JU 88's that's quite a feat 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REVS Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 Wicky, it turns out that it was April 9, 1940, and the Sunderland in question was the 2167 which you provided a link to in your first reply. And, having read a bit more on this topic now thanks to your links, it was shot down by ME110s, not 109s. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 This from Emrys on another forum: I came across a story quite a few years ago ... According to the tale, the Eastern Med Fleet had sortied from Alexandria with Admiral Cunningham on board. At some point, the fleet became shadowed by an Italian recce plane ... A friendly Sunderland was on the scene however and ran the bogey off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affentitten Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 the Sunderland failed to return after signalling an ETA 30 minutes before it was due to start the return leg and was shot down in a running dogfight with a Heinkel 111 of 1(F)./122 Slowest dogfight ever! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 REVS, During the Korean War, Dad served part of his tour as an ET (Electronics Technician) on the U.S.S. Passig, a fleet water distiller. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pasig_%28AW-3%29 There, he was the senior enlisted man reporting to the lieutenant who "owned" the comm shack. The vessel had a scary encounter off Korea when a heavily armed Sunderland came over the horizon and immediately began challenging his ship by Aldis lamp while circling menacingly. Great was the consternation when no one could find the recognition signal for the day--as the Sunderland's communications became both more insistent and its flight pattern ever more threatening. Happily, the signal was eventually located and passed, thus preventing a potentially disastrous friendly fire incident which could've prevented my post altogether. Dad hadn't yet met Mom, you see! Here's an overview of RAF aerial recon during WWII. Includes a link to Part 2. http://www.airrecce.co.uk/WW2/recce_ac/RAFAR.html As seen here, the Sunderland was an important asset of RAF Coastal Command and was very scarce. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Coastal_Command Sunderland op history here as part of long article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Sunderland This should help your friend narrow the list of players. Sunderland Squadrons of World War 2 (Osprey Combat Aircraft 19) (Paperback) by Jon Lake Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalins Organ Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 Looking at the guns on that distillery, the Sunderland was never going to get close.....1 5", 4 each 3", 40mm, 20mm!! the nastiest thing it was going to do was call up somethign biger with more guns.....but in "fact" it was probably jsut rarking up the ship - how many ships of tha size did Korea or China have in that era??!! "I say old chap, the Yanks aren't answering properly.....I think we should ask them again....." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affentitten Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 The scale of WW2 and the USN is brought home to me by the fact that there were four ships built just for distilling water. Wiki article is interesting for the fact that the fate of the Passig is 'unknown'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffsmith Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 http://www.fantasyofflight.com/aircraftpages/sunderland.htm I have been in this plane but haven't seen it fly Would love to have the chance Pasig was sold for scrapping in 1975 http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/45/4503.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Looking at the guns on that distillery' date=' the Sunderland was never going to get close.....1 5", 4 each 3", 40mm, 20mm!![/quote'] You neglected to mention that the 40mm and 20mm were twins, so actually 8 of each. Those would not have been much of a threat to jets I suppose, but they could have put some hurt on a slow moving Sunderland. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff's nephew Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Hi Wicky This may be of interest to you. I have just finished making a documentary entitled A VERY SHORT WAR the climax of which details the final fatal flight of Sunderland L2167 from 210 Squadron RAF, shot down over Norway on 9th April 1940. My uncle was the 2nd pilot/observer on the flight. The website for the doco is at :- http://www.averyshortwar.com Also, there is quite a bit on it at :- http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=84774 Cheers Bill 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff's nephew Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Wicky, it turns out that it was April 9, 1940, and the Sunderland in question was the 2167 which you provided a link to in your first reply. And, having read a bit more on this topic now thanks to your links, it was shot down by ME110s, not 109s. Hi folks Regarding the fate of L2167, the two Messerschmitt Bf110's were piloted by Oblt Werner Hansen and Oblt Helmut Lent. Lent had overshot the runway and crashed his Bf110 earlier in the afternoon, and grabbed another 110 and went up for a last look around. They pursued the Sunderland and it eventually exploded in the air at 5.50pm. One man, Ogwyn George, survived - falling 3000' without a parachute and hitting trees and then deep snow.Lent went on to be a nightfighter ace with 110 kills. Hansen was shot down and killed by own flak on 10th February 1941. Lent, aged 26, was killed in a landing accident on the 7th October 1944. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splay Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Hey so I don’t know if anyone still looks at this but from reading the chats I see that your talking about the plane that at least wicky is talking about is the one that my great grandad died in. So that’s cool I guess 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combatintman Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 On 1/21/2021 at 11:54 PM, Splay said: Hey so I don’t know if anyone still looks at this but from reading the chats I see that your talking about the plane that at least wicky is talking about is the one that my great grandad died in. So that’s cool I guess He probably didn't think so ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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