How to assault tanks with infantry?

[RS14]

I fought a very small QB against the AI today. As luck would have it, I was given no proper AT weapons, while the AI wound up with a Hotchkiss H-39. In urban combat in the fog, I was able to strip away the German infantry. But that Hotchkiss went and parked itself by the VL. No problem, I though. Squad, assault that tank!

Well, first of all, the stupid Hotchkiss just sat there. After lobbing grenades at it for about three minutes, to no effect, I tasked another squad with destroying it. This went on--still to no effect for about two more minutes, before I agreed to a cease fire.

The one thing that occurs to me is the range--my soldiers were lobbing grenades from about 20m, from the cover of buildings. Should I have sent them closer? Does it just take time?

[John Kettler]

RS14,

It's been years since I last played CMBO, and a search didn't help much, but what I think you need to do in order to close assault a tank in CMBO sans special weapons is to have your men close on the tank directly with Move orders, preferably on several divergent axes. The AI should then kick in and do the job. My guess is that your men were under Target commands, so were simply conducting ordinary attacks. If you make the tank the focus of Move, then the AI switches modes and models the guys leaping on the tank, popping a hatch, dropping a grenade, etc. This is easily tested by setting up a tiny scenario with the set up zones very close. It occurs to me you may've put the Hotchkiss into Shocked state via crew casualties. If so, it would explain its maddening inertness. Any way to check?

Here's a tutorial on infantry vs. tanks. While some of it reflects later games like CMBB, it does convey the ideas. Bear in mind, though, that CMBO has no cover arcs.

http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=39877&page=1

Regards,

John Kettler

[RS14]

I set up a battle in which an Elite US Rifle Company with no heavy weapons or heavy explosives attacks a buttoned Conscript Panzer IVG, trapped by heavy buildings.

They were able to knock out the panzer, but not reliably or quickly. There did not appear to be any distinction between charging the tank (not move, fast, nor crawl) and a target order, save that moving troops were spotted and shredded by the Nahverteidigungswaffe.

The best time was 0'11'' to immobilize and 0'18'' to knock out, following a move order. Another test, also under the influence of a move order, resulted in them taking 0'19'' to immobilize, and failing to knock it out after 2'00'' (troops were ordered to move towards the tank again after the first minute). Average time with "Target" orders was 0'14'' to immobilize and 1'14'' to knock out. I'm guessing that each grenade thrown has a low, flat chance to hit and damage, modified by armor, resulting in the wide distribution of results.

I also note that the Panzer never bailed out, even when immobilized. They apparently do not consider unsupported infantry a serious threat. They also, unsurprisingly, were unable to spot stationary infantry in buildings. This may be why the Hotchkiss was unperturbed by my attacks. Unfortunately, I do not have a save from that game, and so cannot check if it was shocked.

I am unsure if range plays a role. However, I note that in a less scientific test, a rifle squad failed to damage a Lynx at 0m range over the course of 1 minute.

Are you thinking of the "Follow Vehicle" command of later games? It does not appear to be implemented in CMBO, and setting a waypoint on a vehicle does not appear to do anything special.

Thanks for the advice, and the link.

[John Kettler]

RS14,

Panzer IV/Gs shouldn't have the Nah, at least, that I've ever seen. Are your sure it wasn't a IV/J? If it had manual turret traverse, it was a IV/J. Here's the word on the Nah, but it lacks model specificity.

http://www.custermen.net/nahvert/nah.htm

Are you sure your Elite rifle company didn't bring any M9A1 AT rifle grenades to the party? Every squad should have a few. Wasn't thinking of the "follow vehicle" command; was merely trying to recall procedural details for a game I hadn't played in years. "Follow vehicle" didn't appear until CMBB. Regarding the vs. Lynx test, if those guys had yanked hard on the barrel they would've F-Killed the wee beastie. Best guess? They were too close and weren't using grenades.

Glad to help! the link is the key to vast CM treasure, and you can learn a great deal by reading the threads in that section.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

RS14,

Per AchtungPanzer, the IV/J did have the Nah, which the G didn't. This is from the IV/J description. (Fair use)

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-iv.htm#panzer4

"As the production continued, more modifications were made including: deletion of turret visor and pistol ports, installation of Pilze 2-ton crane mount sockets, introduction of Flammentoeter mufflers, conversion from plate Schurzen to wire-mesh Thoma type, reduction to 3 return rollers per side, installation of Naehverteidigungswaffe close defence system and ceasing application of Zimmerit paste."

Regards,

John Kettler

[RS14]

You're right; I was typing my summary with only the timing results available. It was a IV/J.

I'm rather impressed that you knew which models were fitted with the Nah off the top of your head.

I specifically removed rifle grenades from the inventory of all these units in the editor.

IIRC, the troops at 0m were using grenades, though I could be misremembering. I'll need to get back to you about that.

[John Kettler]

RS14,

Let's just say I've used IV/Js in battle and found the Nah very handy when swarmed by Russian infantry. No other IV model was so fitted. I freely admit, though, that your claim sent me to both hardback and online references to make sure I hadn't missed something after you said it was a IV/G. Good to know you stripped out the rifle grenades for your test. Grenades at 0 meters sounds a bit exciting for my tastes. Contrary to Hollywood, a hand grenade going off inside a tank could easily result in a huge explosion and fire. Something else to know about IV/Js--don't fight fast, maneuverable AFVs in close. The manual traverse will eat you alive. I should know, having been demolished by M5 Stuarts in precisely that manner in a knife fight.

Regards,

John Kettler