Jump to content

Kursk 43 German Uniforms & Panzers


Narses

Recommended Posts

I'm only just sampling the Demo and it certainly looks nice graphically.

A couple comments that may be wrong as they are just based on what I see in the Demo:

- German inf uniforms look very much like 1940-41 styles not so much like 43. There were changes and while the older styles persisted there should be more 43 style uniforms with the ankle wraps and laced boots. The "dice shaker" boots were disappearing. The uniform cut and style was changing especially for enlisted uniforms to open collars and the reed-green type (Schilfgruener Anzug and the Dienstanzug Modelle 1943). Of course also for the winter a new uniform was introduced for 42-44 - the padded and reversable Wintertarnanzug. Even the helmet changed but the look was not too different.

- I also tried the Mission Generator and could only seem to get Pz II and PzIII's. I thought this a bit odd and also I could only select between "motorized" and "infantry" - is motorized also panzer ? I'm sure the Pz IV, V and VI are in the Missikon Generator - correct?

I certainly realize lots of IIIs were around in 43 but the mainstay was the IV.

I played one scenario where T34 and Kv1s (very nice indeed) were on my Sov side and the poor Krauts had only Pz IIs and IIs ! Also all the pz turret markings were Abteilungen markings ( e.g., I08, etc). I trust we have some straight forward zug numbering like 323, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, as for the units - seems fair.

The Ruskis did have ALOT more tanks than the germans.

And there were large numbers of Panzer IIIs at Kursk. Not so many Panthers and Tigers.

I can't understand why they felt they needed to include the Pz.BefWg. III, it seems redundant when the game doesn't need it.

German uniforms had me disappointed. Looks like crap! Skins for the models are just... silly. The shoulderboards, the helmets.. silly.

I hope someone makes new graphics for them.

But I rather like it anyways. It's Kursk, dammit! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeh, as I said there were lots of III's at Kursk. Zetterling says 608 and 702 IV's and only 58 light tanks. There were 145 Tigers and 239 Marders and 141 Stugs. And of course the Panthers of which bwtween about 135 and 166 were operational on 6 July. This all from Zetterling & Frankson's Kursk 1943: A Statistical Analysis.

Its also imortant to note that on the Soviet side the largest numbers of tanks were T34 and T70 light tanks. In 5th Gds for example were 409 T34 and 188 T70 light tanks as well as 48 SU 76 and 31 Churchills. There were actually relatively few KV1s at Kursk, only about 200. 100 in Central Front and 105 in Voronezh Front. Numbers don't tell the whole story either as the German 75 & ammo were superior to the 76 weapon in the T34 and Kv1. Not only that but the T34 still had that terrible 2 man turret with the cdr as gunner. All Ger pzs (not the II) had 3 man crews which could spot and deliver aimed fire much more rapidlt that the Soviet T34.

My point was not about numbers. It was that in the Demo's Mission Generator I could only seem to select Pz II (only 58 present at Kursk and used almost exclusively as hq staff vehicles) and Pz III's. So my query was where are the Stugs, Marders, IV, V and VI's - are they in the Mission Gen or what.

I glad you agreed on the Ger uniforms - terrible. Although the Soviets in the Demo game I played looked interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeh, as I said there were lots of III's at Kursk. Zetterling says 608 and 702 IV's and only 58 light tanks. There were 145 Tigers and 239 Marders and 141 Stugs. And of course the Panthers of which bwtween about 135 and 166 were operational on 6 July. This all from Zetterling & Frankson's Kursk 1943: A Statistical Analysis.

Its also imortant to note that on the Soviet side the largest numbers of tanks were T34 and T70 light tanks. In 5th Gds for example were 409 T34 and 188 T70 light tanks as well as 48 SU 76 and 31 Churchills. There were actually relatively few KV1s at Kursk, only about 200. 100 in Central Front and 105 in Voronezh Front. Numbers don't tell the whole story either as the German 75 & ammo were superior to the 76 weapon in the T34 and Kv1. Not only that but the T34 still had that terrible 2 man turret with the cdr as gunner. All Ger pzs (not the II) had 3 man crews which could spot and deliver aimed fire much more rapidlt that the Soviet T34.

My point was not about numbers. It was that in the Demo's Mission Generator I could only seem to select Pz II (only 58 present at Kursk and used almost exclusively as hq staff vehicles) and Pz III's. So my query was where are the Stugs, Marders, IV, V and VI's - are they in the Mission Gen or what.

I glad you agreed on the Ger uniforms - terrible. Although the Soviets in the Demo game I played looked interesting.

Well, I don't feel the need to browse through my library, since we agree. I won't say anything on the numbers you've posted, except the Ruskis did have alot more of everything (but not so much ethics, code of honour, etc., leaving fallen comrades was a standard Soviet tactic) than the germans. But since you added the 5th Guards, it's OK.

Well, I've been puzzled about this game for some time. But, hey, it's TOW. If 1C feels the need to add thousands of Panzer IIs and pit them against KVs, let them. I'll make my own scenarios and omit them. :P

As for Soviet uniforms, you are correct. They certainly look better than the German GD uniforms. The Germans look almost like a late Alpha versions with unfinished skin. No doubt - they will leave it that way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was wrong the Marders are there but still no Pz IV or Stugs or Tigers or Panthers.

I tried a date in the middle of Kursk and still only Pz II and III also the Marder which I missed.

Why buy this unless those vehicles are in the game ? So you'll not pick any Pz II's nor do I but if you play their missions you'll get them. And fine but if you only get Pz III's you still have a problem trying to get a good game especially if you want an armor fight.

I keep asking this question because I suppose its possible the Demo ONLY doesn't have these vehicles so how about an answer from 1C or battlefront TOW.

I won't comment on ethics or code of honor as it plays no part in the game and the Germans were not exactly the good guys as they stripped villages of food and livestock and let POW's die from lack of care (but both sides did as they pleased).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, the Germans tried never to leave a wounded comrade.

That is not taking sides, but I can't claim to like the USSR.

I will not go into greater detail, but I will say that no Norwegians died of hunger, maltreatment or "raping and pillaging"(those that died of hunger did so of their own free will, infact). The resistance fighters doesn't count.

I have had Tigers in the demo, but that was a German mission, not the generator.

But since this game ONLY focuses on the Grossdeutschland division, you will have vehicles available to them, not random Panzerjäger groups. That's a pity, since the germans in the game could be any division in the Wehrmacht. The uniforms don't look like anything other than generic Germans.

When it comes to picking PzIIs, I'd rather not have them at all, so I'd allocate them to my "reserves". Better to have one tank less, than one more handicap. It'll just get KO'd, and I would lose valuable crew members.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well as know the Panthers were with the GD so seems they should be there in the Mission Generator. Of course they must be in the scenarios.

If those Stugs, PzIV, V and VI are not in the Mission Generator than I may skip a purchase or go back to playing the best tank game ever - Pz Elite with its upgraded graphics. It seems quite strange that the Administrator here can't answer this question.

The Russians were certainly profligate in the way they feed their men into the German meat grinder but it was probably necessary especially in 1941 and they managed at Smolensk to really stop Barbarossa. Afterall they were the country invade as despicable as the regime there was. In truth there was little to choose between the Nazi and the Soviet.

I have a feeling most Norwegians would not agree with you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, my family didn't mind the germans.

But when the Soviets made their way into Finnmark, the Germans used the tried-and-tested Soviet tactic of "Schorched Earth" - burning everything to the ground.

My grandmothers house was burned, but she knew that the guys burning it didn't want to.

They were her "neighbours" for almost 5 years.

When the socialistic Arbeiderpartiet came back in 1945, they gave the people of Finnmark some old rotten planks and pieces of wood that no man would pay money for, and they built small shacks to live in with this lousy material.

THEN they billed the people of Finnmark FULL MARKET PRICE for the wood.

I do not want Norwegians to agree with me, but I know for a fact that Norway was better off than many other countries.

Nobody died of starvation because we had Quisling. Those who died were those who fled up in the mountains by sheer Norwegian stupidity.

Many modern communists deny the "human wave" tactic. Russian losses were enormous.

Then the Soviets went into germany, what did they do? Rape, murder, looting, torture. Well after the war.

Even G.Is did this (Jordbruen, "Helvete på Jord", the memoirs of a Norwegian soldier of the Waffen-SS). I am not saying germans didn't do it in russia, but the fact that people can openly support one evil over the other is absurd. Yeah, and the USSR had much, much more innocent blood on their hands. Ukraina, Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, and the forced labour of the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.

Well, enough about this. This is not a thread about anything but TOW2. :P

Panzer Elite? What game is that? Playstation?

I'm not sure how they chose the tanks for this game, but something just screams "random".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"the Germans were not exactly the good guys" - LOL

AslakH, i don't even want to start to comment on bunch of totally off-topic bull**** you've posted here. You know less than nothing about atrocities on Eastern front, life in the USSR, life in Germany both Nazi and occupied, yet you make very bold and offensive statements. You just became a traitor of the worst kind, traitor of your own country by saying that people who opposed Nazi invaders and died because of this were just stupid. Smarter you would be in the first ranks of welcomers waving their flag around, i understand. Go and cry about the defeat of good Nazis and victory of bad Soviets somewhere else. There are many places on the Net established specially for this and wanking at correct Nazi uniforms. Please don't buy the game, developers don't want even one cent from the likes of you. And yes, enough about this.

In case anyone reading this is interested in the game, not the Nazi glorification:

1) German unifroms aren't generic, for example shutze has Grossdeutschland label on the sleeve;

2) Obviously, scenario generator in the demo is limited. Panthers, Tigers, etc. are available in different army layouts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"the Germans were not exactly the good guys" - LOL

AslakH, i don't even want to start to comment on bunch of totally off-topic bull**** you've posted here. You know less than nothing about atrocities on Eastern front, life in the USSR, life in Germany both Nazi and occupied, yet you make very bold and offensive statements. You just became a traitor of the worst kind, traitor of your own country by saying that people who opposed Nazi invaders and died because of this were just stupid. Smarter you would be in the first ranks of welcomers waving their flag around, i understand. Go and cry about the defeat of good Nazis and victory of bad Soviets somewhere else. There are many places on the Net established specially for this and wanking at correct Nazi uniforms. Please don't buy the game, developers don't want even one cent from the likes of you. And yes, enough about this.

In case anyone reading this is interested in the game, not the Nazi glorification:

1) German unifroms aren't generic, for example shutze has Grossdeutschland label on the sleeve;

2) Obviously, scenario generator in the demo is limited. Panthers, Tigers, etc. are available in different army layouts.

AH, ok what I suspected. So the Demo is limited and those other vehicles will be in the final product's Mission Generator.

I'm a customer and will order.

Sorry my topic on "where are the panzer IV, etc" got of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"the Germans were not exactly the good guys" - LOL

AslakH, i don't even want to start to comment on bunch of totally off-topic bull**** you've posted here. You know less than nothing about atrocities on Eastern front, life in the USSR, life in Germany both Nazi and occupied, yet you make very bold and offensive statements. You just became a traitor of the worst kind, traitor of your own country by saying that people who opposed Nazi invaders and died because of this were just stupid. Smarter you would be in the first ranks of welcomers waving their flag around, i understand. Go and cry about the defeat of good Nazis and victory of bad Soviets somewhere else. There are many places on the Net established specially for this and wanking at correct Nazi uniforms. Please don't buy the game, developers don't want even one cent from the likes of you. And yes, enough about this.

In case anyone reading this is interested in the game, not the Nazi glorification:

1) German unifroms aren't generic, for example shutze has Grossdeutschland label on the sleeve;

2) Obviously, scenario generator in the demo is limited. Panthers, Tigers, etc. are available in different army layouts.

Well, Sneaksie, I didn't say the nazis were innocent, but glorifying an evil regime which starved some 10 million people to death in the 30s is just as wrong.

And I do not care if some random russian guy doesn't agree with me, nor do I cry about any defeat over nazi germany.

And I was talking about the NORWEGIAN CIVILIAN POPULATION, not the Soviet civilians.

When they took up arms against the german invaders, then became combatants. That is why they do not count.

Many people feared the worst and fled into the mountains, and died. That is a stupid thing to do, but they did so of their own free will. If you feel I attacked your people, I did not mean to. But personal attacks are not OK. I can apologise to anyone that may be offended.

BUT:

If I've offended you, I am not sorry. I know you are Russian, and I don't care.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

just a note about Panthers and Tig1's

They are definately in both game and demo...

Once again I was only referring to the Demo's Mission Generator. And Sneaksie says the other panzers will be in the final product's Mission Generator.

For me a game without an editor and a mission generator is an unfinished product. Kind of like Pz Elite when it was released in late 1999. Fortunately a couple different groups took on the fix for the game (I participated in the OstPak mod from about 1999 to 2004/5 and still play the game which has all new skins, extra models and better graphics from what was oriinally released. Unfortunately some of the 2D aspects could not be changed like the infantry and vehicle wheels).

I assume those pzs missing from the Mission Gen are in the Demo ingame scenarios although I was concentrating on the Mission Generator and will relook at the game scenarios.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, as for the units - seems fair.

The Ruskis did have ALOT more tanks than the germans.

And there were large numbers of Panzer IIIs at Kursk. Not so many Panthers and Tigers.

I can't understand why they felt they needed to include the Pz.BefWg. III, it seems redundant when the game doesn't need it.

German uniforms had me disappointed. Looks like crap! Skins for the models are just... silly. The shoulderboards, the helmets.. silly.

I hope someone makes new graphics for them.

But I rather like it anyways. It's Kursk, dammit! :D

This thread did get a little off-topic, but I'll add what I know about Kursk anyway. There were more Panzer 4s and Panzer 3s during Kursk without question. Ironically, the Panther tank helped to hurt Germanys chances to win at Kursk. Hitler kept delaying the jump off date for Kursk over and over again, just so he could get the Panther out of the factories and put into the field. This delay only gave the Soviets more time to add to their considerable defenses. In the end the Panther really didn't perform well as it didn't have time to get past its "teething" problems. I believe this was also the case with the Ferdinand's too - these beasts were even fielded without any secondary armament - machine guns... Hitler's wonder weapons only hurt them in the end.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Once again I was only referring to the Demo's Mission Generator. And Sneaksie says the other panzers will be in the final product's Mission Generator.

For me a game without an editor and a mission generator is an unfinished product. Kind of like Pz Elite when it was released in late 1999. Fortunately a couple different groups took on the fix for the game (I participated in the OstPak mod from about 1999 to 2004/5 and still play the game which has all new skins, extra models and better graphics from what was oriinally released. Unfortunately some of the 2D aspects could not be changed like the infantry and vehicle wheels).

I assume those pzs missing from the Mission Gen are in the Demo ingame scenarios although I was concentrating on the Mission Generator and will relook at the game scenarios.

You can edit the HML file to add the vehicles from the single missions to the mission generator - add them to the moto_division_ger xml file

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread did get a little off-topic, but I'll add what I know about Kursk anyway. There were more Panzer 4s and Panzer 3s during Kursk without question. Ironically, the Panther tank helped to hurt Germanys chances to win at Kursk. Hitler kept delaying the jump off date for Kursk over and over again, just so he could get the Panther out of the factories and put into the field. This delay only gave the Soviets more time to add to their considerable defenses. In the end the Panther really didn't perform well as it didn't have time to get past its "teething" problems. I believe this was also the case with the Ferdinand's too - these beasts were even fielded without any secondary armament - machine guns... Hitler's wonder weapons only hurt them in the end.

The Ferdinand was a total wate of time although I know Porsche already had 90 built for the Tiger project at his own expense. Might've been better to have converted them to pz retrieving vehicles for the Tiger.

You may be correct but I'm not totally convinced about an earlier date for Zitadelle. It wasn't only the Panther but the need to build up other assets for the offensive. I'm talking infantry, pzs, enggineers, artillery, air assets and getting them all in place. THe Germans were exhausted from the winter battles of 42/43 and VManstein's brilliant Kharkov offensive and certainly needed rest and replenishment.

But it is a tempting theory especially as the Germans watched all those massive defensive positions being built and Model on 4 May at a Zitadelle conference actually showed aerial photos of the extensive ring of fortifications to Hitler, Zeitzler, von Manstein and Guderian. Model said he thought the time was past for an attack.

Another great problem was the Soviets could always regenerate forces and the Germans could not.

Guderian (then in 43 as IG of Pz forces supposedly said to AH: Why do you want to attack in the East this year at all? AH replied: You're right, everytime I think about it my stomach turns over).

My thought is Guderian was right that the best solution was to let the Soviets attack into a German mobile defense posture and strike back in a mobile battle where Germany might still have had an advantage.

Frankly Germany was trying to do too much with too little from 41 on. The Russians in 41 had a manpower base of 14 million behind their 5 million man 1941 force. The Germans invaded with only a handful of reserve divisions and an acknowledged ability to replace only several hundred thousand casualties thru Seot.Oct as I recall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...