[CAMP]Warriors in the Sands

[Blackcat]

GeorgeMC,

I sympathise with your frustration as I had similar problems. Are you playing in Real Time? The reason I ask is that I play in WEGO mode, which means that I had the luxury of being able to sort out the traffic jam (hint: over to the right just before the col between the two big hills is an area of dead ground) as well as control the advance on the village.

I have advanced the theory that some missions/scenarios play better in WEGO than RT in previous posts. I wonder if this mission is an example of my theory in action. Bardosy, if you read this can you say in what mode the scenario was designed and tested?

The only other thing I can offer, though I am sure that as a beta tester you have more knowledge and experience of the game than I do, is that the Brits have more than enough firepower for this mission. So you can afford to expend the ammo fo the initial warriors etc. by brassing up every likely enemy position from the start.

Bardosy does seem to like giving his players a phased battle, so that we get enough units for the first phase at the and then successive waves of re-enforcements allow us to push on and take further objectives in sequence. The problem comes when we fight a slower battle than, perhaps, he anticipates because then we get the traffic jam situation which can lead to unnecessary losses if the set-up zone is still under enemy observation. I will not complain though as he also allows plenty of time so that I can the battle my way, and worry about force conservation.

I just hope he has carried the re-enforcement practice on into the fourth mission otherwise I am going to get stuffed - my initial forces have but one tank (out of the four promised in the briefing) and just two full platoons of infantry (instead of two companies' worth).

[George MC]

Hi Blackcat

I'm playing RT, with the occasional pause. Even playing WEGO I'd still find the set-up zones far to small. I hate being forced into small set-up zones

Yeah I had everyone placing supressing fire down on every house in LOF but all it takes is one lucky RPG - so far the OPFOR placed two lucky RPGs and shot up my Jackals! I don't mind successive waves just give me the space to set em up is all I ask - please

[Blackcat]

Wotcha George,

The nice thing about WEGO in these situations is that as soon as the re-enforcements arrive one has the luxury of being able to incorporate them into the current action or run them over to some dead ground and do so without losing control/awareness of the key action areas.

I suppose you can do the same thing by using a pause if you have the ability to keep up with what is going on, which let's face gets pretty intense at times, and keep track of the messages flashing up. I cannot do that (age slows down the brain in some respects); in fact I can't imagine how it is possible to play a large mission in real time. Once there are more than about seven units on the board I lose it. In the real world, the command radius (the number of subordinate commanders on has to control) is usually, what, between 3 and 7? There is probably a reason for that.

I look forward to hearing how you got on when you get backl to the mission.

[bardosy]

@George MC: The setup phase was a problem in beta-test phase too, but testers can solve it. E.g.: Souldierz used smoke from vehicles. When I test it, I just use the Warriors auto-cannon and other vehicles' main gun to suppress the village. Between the setup zone and the hostile forces are a lot of house. These buildings are empty. So you can use your mobility to reach it with high speed, while other vehicles supress the far side of the village. (I never spent my mortar for this, but you also can use your mortar support to supress the villagers).

Try to pump more and more troops into village's first buildings and then you have space to the reinforcements. I also send a few reinforcement units to the hills on right. Mostly spotters, Javelins and snipers.

@BlackCat: I designed and tested on RT. WEGO - as I regognized - works better to me, if I have to controll huge forces and I cannot focus everywhere. Eg: in the Aleppo International mission (in this campaign) is the right example for this (because player have to share focus in two fronts) but I tested it in RT too and it was not so hard.

"The problem comes when we fight a slower battle than, perhaps, he anticipates because then we get the traffic jam situation". Yeah, it could be a problem... But I ran an open beta-test in this forum and Souldierz - who was kindly tested my missions - found these too easy. So I thought, it's could be great fun for everybody, because I didn't found so easy (when I test). But I never found it impossible. So I thought it's balanced...

In the 4th mission, my beta-testers blame me because of huge Brit overstrangth. So they suggested me to decrase the Brits... and I did. In the first version there was 11 Challengers... and two more infantry platoon. Sorry

[handihoc]

Can't say I had any real problems with the set-up zones. Moving out of them, I came under fire and took a few hits, but that was more because I was hasty. Realising this needed a little more thought, I restarted.

A more cautious approach - if I remember correctly only a couple of my vehicles came under fire from rpgs, and these were some distance off and inaccurate. My guys returned fire and they were quickly taken out. Next turn I was able to edge forward a little, whilst sending recons out to the right.

Following that pattern I eventually took the village with relatively low losses. Had no problem with placement of reinforcements when they arrived - they only came under fire as they advanced, but not by a lot as my first wave had already dealt with most of the resistance by then.

Love this campaign. I'm in Aleppo by Night now. It's a dense urban Brit Special Forces nighttime infiltration to locate and rescue hostages being held somewhere in and near the British Embassy. Really excellent fun, and a nice variation in battle/scenario style. You've got a treat coming, guys!

[George MC]

@George MC: The setup phase was a problem in beta-test phase too, but testers can solve it. E.g.: Souldierz used smoke from vehicles. When I test it, I just use the Warriors auto-cannon and other vehicles' main gun to suppress the village. Between the setup zone and the hostile forces are a lot of house. These buildings are empty. So you can use your mobility to reach it with high speed, while other vehicles supress the far side of the village. (I never spent my mortar for this, but you also can use your mortar support to supress the villagers).

Try to pump more and more troops into village's first buildings and then you have space to the reinforcements. I also send a few reinforcement units to the hills on right. Mostly spotters, Javelins and snipers.

I hear ya Guesss it comes down to playing style, but I would prefer to be able to set-up and plan my attack and move to contact rather than be right in the firing zone from the off. Despite smoke and heavy fire I still started to lose units. Using my mobility to reach the village at high speed just saw stuff die very quick - and I am a fan of IFVs being aggressive just I felt given the amount of AT assests that seem to be around not the way to go. Hence holding my IFVs and other stuff back whilst the grunts under supporting fire probed ahead. Still as I said the reinforcements piled on top of the other units in overwatch. I think allowing for differant play styles i.e. some might go in hard and fast others slow, and the impact on map reinforcements will have and allowing a larger set-up zone will make a difference, but hey only my opinion after all.

Cheers fur noo

George

[bardosy]

I'm really thankful for every advice! I love to create campaigns, and I'll and I hear every advice and I hope I can create better and better mission because of your feedback.

In this situation, where do you expand the setup zone? To the village? I guess if player place his units closer the village, he will suffer more casualities. Or far to the villige? Expand the map size to West? I'm not sure it's defend your units...

I know, your main problem is not the setup near the kill-zone, but the traffic jam. Solve your problem if I expand the setup zone to the side (to the hill on the right)?

[handihoc]

Agreed that units starting a battle, or as reinforcements on arrival turn, should not be in direct line of fire of enemy units.

But in a perverse kind've way, I'm quite a fan of traffic jams (providing they're used sparingly!)

It's a realistic cause of frustration, after all, and has happened, and still does, frequently in real military situations. Viz D-Day, Market Gdn, Bulge and no doubt during the two Gulf Wars. So when it happens in-game I kind've groan, but equally kind've enjoy the hassle of sorting it out. Maybe I'm nuts.

There's a great tv series in the UK at the moment called Road Warriors, on ITV1, about Brit land supply units delivering supplies and equipment to forward bases in Afghanistan. These convoys can be up to 6 miles long, hauling across deserts and through towns, villages etc - on or off road, day night, sometimes in atrocious conditions, always under enemy observation, sometimes under attack. Often the entire convoy gets held up due to an IED or abandoned truck or something. You can feel the tension and frustration, as well as the fear, mount. It can be nailbiting stuff.

[Blackcat]

Thanks Guys. My wife has gone out today so I decided to steal some time from working to play and I am Just taking a break from the Suburbs of Aleppo mission. Another real good one.

I have taken the Plaza and the factory on the right hand side and destroyed two Syrian BMP-mobile counter attacks with few losses (the odd infantryman, but no vehicles). Having a great time with this one.

[George MC]

I'm really thankful for every advice! I love to create campaigns, and I'll and I hear every advice and I hope I can create better and better mission because of your feedback.

In this situation, where do you expand the setup zone? To the village? I guess if player place his units closer the village, he will suffer more casualities. Or far to the villige? Expand the map size to West? I'm not sure it's defend your units...

I know, your main problem is not the setup near the kill-zone, but the traffic jam. Solve your problem if I expand the setup zone to the side (to the hill on the right)?

I'd expand the map size to the west - that way you can have the reinforcemnts come in without em being on top of each other. I've carried on with the battle but I'm now very confused as to what task organised company group I have here - I seem to have heaps of HQs dotting around and some very odd task groupings.

I'd have thought for this action the company group would be organised around the armoured infantry company (minus a platoon) you would have say several platoons of armoured infantry, a supporting pioneer platoon, matbe a troop of armour or even a half troop plus maybe an AT detachment. I would have thought that would all be under the armoured company CO for this type of mission. As is I have the battalion HQ, two company HQs, and now the regimental HQ tank from the armoured boys. I'd suggest when you sort out the OOB that you remove the extra HQs. No way would you have two company HQs and the batllion HQ all darting about in the same action, plus all their 2ICs - too many Chiefs here

[George MC]

Uploaded a zip file that explains what I am on about.

British Army Battlegroups and Company Teams.zip

[George MC]

Just onto the Aleppo mission now. So far the fighting has been very challenging so overall the missions are fun to play. Just a couple of wee design issues that are becoming a tad irrittaing. I've had two occasions where enemy reinforcements have beamed into the midst of my units. One in the earlier mission where a garrison I had left to cover my flank had enemy beame right into their midst - scratch several sections. Now in the Aleppo mission I've had a clutch of BMPs beam into LOF of two of my recce scimiters who I had sent down the canal to keep an eye out. There were happily sitting there for several minutes when the next thing I know there is clutch of BMPs appearing in the canal - scratch two scimiters... Might be worth checking the set-up zones for enemy reinforcements. Still as I said the tactical challenges are very good, and I like playing very large scenarios - so well done for creating this

[Blackcat]

Just onto the Aleppo mission now. So far the fighting has been very challenging so overall the missions are fun to play. Just a couple of wee design issues that are becoming a tad irrittaing. I've had two occasions where enemy reinforcements have beamed into the midst of my units. One in the earlier mission where a garrison I had left to cover my flank had enemy beame right into their midst - scratch several sections. Now in the Aleppo mission I've had a clutch of BMPs beam into LOF of two of my recce scimiters who I had sent down the canal to keep an eye out. There were happily sitting there for several minutes when the next thing I know there is clutch of BMPs appearing in the canal - scratch two scimiters... Might be worth checking the set-up zones for enemy reinforcements. Still as I said the tactical challenges are very good, and I like playing very large scenarios - so well done for creating this

Have you had the Syran tanks come on yet? I have, things were going quite nicely until then. I have no complaints about where they arrive, which is a perfectly reasonable place. It just I wasn't expecting them there and was crossing that bit of ground with a re-enforced platoon, all mounted, two hundred yards in front of them and in plain view. It got very messy.

If they had come on a minute earlier it wouldn't have been a problem as my scouts would have seen them and the platoon would have stayed back out of view. If they had come on a minute later it would have been fine. As it was they caused grave damage in the minute and a bit it took for me to kill them. As they say, "sh*t happens".

When Bardosy was designing this mission, I bet he never thought that his cunning placement would have had such a devastating effect. He is rather good at creating challenges from placing AI forces.

[George MC]

Yup had the tanks come on and shoot up a platoon of Warriors and their dismounts that were moving through that small building complex to the left of the canal. Took em in the rear. So no not a great fan of stuff being beamed in like that. I appreciate sometimes that the designer can be caught out with this thinking players might not advance as far - done it myself when desiging stuff - but from a play POV it's a bit of a deal breaker. Despite this pulled a major victory.

As to my plan - after taking the small hill and clearing the minaret compound below it I pretty much just attacked along the right bank of the canal, cleared the house on the other side of that main road on the embankment, cleared the houses on the left side, then drove my armour and a platoon of Warriors straight down the road and into the exit zone. Lost one tank and had a Warrior immobilised in this. Pretty chuffed my Thunder Run worked though Other than that pretty much wellied everything that popped into view with arty, air and Javellins.

I'd still loads of stuff piled back at my rear lines - all those HQ units and other junk, came in handy for holding stuff though. Bet all these Ruperts never thought they'd be defending stuff

[handihoc]

Guys, sounds like you were both just a minute ahead of me, and paid a high price for it. Those Syrian tanks came on when I just happened to have two Challengers perfectly positioned to deal with them, along with a Javelin team, and I survived them without a scratch.

A minute or so later and my Challengers would have been caught with their backs to them. Luck of the draw.

I completed the next mission, Aleppo by Night, and really enjoyed it - though was slightly disappointed to get a surrender twenty minutes before timeout, and just as I was getting ready to storm the embassy and nearby buildings.

I also found that Syrian rooftop snipers were facing away from me and didn't get to let a single shot off before they died. That needs to be fixed.

On to the Airport - though I haven't had time to start it yet.

[George MC]

Just finished the Aleppo by night scenario (got a draw here). Only used the first group of dismounts and pressed on, stormed the embassy with ten minutes to go. However got the draw as I said but I'm right back at the start of the same scenario. I thought I might have gone onto the next one? Or do I have to get a win in this to move on?

[handihoc]

Hmm, strange, I went automatically to the Airport battle.

[George MC]

Hi Handihoc

Are you playing the UK version or the USMC version? I think there could be an issue in the campaign txt file which is why I seem caught in a loop.

[Blackcat]

George MC,

I have had such loops occur in other campaigns. On those occasions I needed to get a win to proceed.

By the way, I was interested from your post above that you also moved down the right flank through the group of low buildings by the canal. It means that I am not the only person who decided to take the indirect approach to the objective in Mission 4, which I hope to complete today.

P.S. I also liked your comments about ruperts guarding the rear areas. I do the same, except for platoon command groups (purely out a sense of trying to stay real). In some respects its a shocking waste of firepower, all thos ewarriors sitting roud all game do nothing. On the other hand it is too much of a fag to incorporate them into the battle plan. In game terms I am not sure these odds and sods HQ units can be dispensed with, particularly at higher game-levels, are they not essential for command and control (i.e. spotting) purposes?

[Blackcat]

Well, what do you know? I just fired up Mission 4, played one turn and the Syrians threw their hands in with 37 minutes still on the clock. They still had 117 men (with two BMPs) left in play and the capacity to do deal out some serious casualties. Not for the first time I wonder about the AI's willingness to surrender in CMSF.

Now onto the hostage rescue mission. One quick look at the map tells me I am not going to enjoy this. Jackals and Land Rovers in a dense urban environment are not my cup of tea at all (yes, Bardsoy, I did see your comment in the Tactics Forum). Still needs must when the Devil drives and all that, and I now know I have to get a victory to get back to proper war fighting.

[George MC]

Hi Blackcat

re all the command units - one of the patches (can't mind which one) sorted out the C and C issue. You can have command units of map and not affect the C and C. What I do is allocate the unneeded HQ units a reinforcement slot and give em a time of arrival after the scenario finishes. That way you keep the C and C but you don't have them all on map. Must admit all those HQ units did irritate me as they just cluttered up my battle plan - look towards my rear lines and I just saw stacks of icons sitting there.

Good luck with the next mission. I'm with you on this - light infantry and light vehicles, in an urban environment at night is not my cup of tea. Still caught in the loop and I can't work up the motivation to re-play it in the hope of getting a win, so looks like the end of the campaign for me. Shame as I did enjoy the mechanised side of it. This scenario did seem a bit out of keeping with the main ethos of the campaign. Designer's call

Possible spoilers for Mission 4

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#Yeah I took one look at Stalingrad on the left flank and thought "bugger that!" My attack around the flank seemed to catch the Syrian defence off guard.

[handihoc]

George, I've got both Brits and USMC installed, and both light up when I choose the battle, so it's a double. I didn't choose it, I think if you have both, it chooses automatically.

I assume you have both, too? In that case, I would imagine the loop is caused by you getting a draw rather than a victory, but don't know for sure.

Blackcat, yes I agree, the AI does have a tendency to give up early, not just in this campaign but in SF generally. Don't know if it's written into the game itself or whether it's the designers not setting stiff enough conditions. I'd like to see it improved because I've had numerous battles end early which, when viewing the map, show considerable numbers of fairly well armed enemy units still in place. In fact, I often decide not to even try to occupy the furthest victory locations, concentrating instead on wearing down enemy resistance from a distance so as to inflict maximum casualties and get a surrender. Not wholly satisfying.

[bardosy]

Now in the Aleppo mission I've had a clutch of BMPs beam into LOF of two of my recce scimiter

The spawns never realistic But necessary. Usually, the enemy spawns in his rear sector behind forest or buildings. But sometimes (as in the Ofiicial BFC campaign) it spawn in the desert in the middle of my units.

I always try to keep my spawn in realistic, but sometimes it's impossible. Eg: in side attacks. Without syrian flankings the missions are very linear: go ahead with all force.

Of course I try to cover the spawns, but it's not always possible, if you are there...

BUT! Those BMPs are spawn REALISIC!!! (Realistic as BFC able me to do.) Because that BMPs come from the other side of the highway through a tunnel for the canal.

If in CMSF could be bridge, the BMPs suprise the player in the same way as now with spawn.

I completed the next mission, Aleppo by Night, and really enjoyed it - though was slightly disappointed to get a surrender twenty minutes before timeout, and just as I was getting ready to storm the embassy and nearby buildings.

Handihoc, I try to answer here:

It was dissapointed me too, but I couldn't solve how the syrians gain more morale to not surrender...

But - for you question - there is no civilian in CMSF, I put an invisible objective (you can't see it when you play) on any building near the Embassy. And if one of your soldier enter that building, the objective completed (gain more point) and the title will visible.

The Bio Bob is a Syrian officer somewhere and if you kill him, that objective is done also.

George and handihoc:

If you didn't win a mission (at least minor victory) you cannot continue the next mission and campaign add a new chance to reply the actual one.

It's same in two version. The only difference is in Airport you can fight against syrian airborne troopers (USMC) or not (UK).

Jackals and Land Rovers in a dense urban environment are not my cup of tea at all

You can do this mission only with infantry! Just left behind the vehicles!

[bardosy]

Unfortunately, I cannot edit my prev post anymore, so I start a new one:

What I do is allocate the unneeded HQ units a reinforcement slot and give em a time of arrival after the scenario finishes. That way you keep the C and C but you don't have them all on map.

WOW!!! It works? I never know that! Thanks!!!! I'll apply this in my next campaign! That's a great news.

light infantry and light vehicles, in an urban environment at night is not my cup of tea.

Light vehicles are understandable, but infantry??? Infantry is the only good for urban fight. IMHO. BlacCat, what are you planned in your Stalingrad-like mission? It's not an infantry battle?

so looks like the end of the campaign for me.

Sorry to hear that.

What's your suggestion? Do I lower the "done status" of a mission from minor victory to draw?

But, I'm really thankful for your comments, suggestion and feedbacks!!! I respect your opinion and I try to learn from my mistakes. I always learn from your comments, so it's a good way to create better and better missions/campaigns!

[George MC]

Hi Bardosy

I did enjoy the missions I fought in the campaign - just I did not particularly enjoy the SF one. I had thought the campaign was based around a Warrior unit, and as I keen on mech heavy actions thought great. The SF one I just got a bit bored with as. I'm not all that keen on playing it again I must admit as it's not the sort of action I find either interesting or challenging. As a suggestion - rather than have players play the same action again why not give them a differant mission to play - failure to win that one boots em out or win that they go back into the main campaign?

Glad you find the comments useful - feedback in the past from players has been of great help in sorting these things out. Anwyas good luck with your scenarios - look forward to some more mech based ones

Cheers fur noo

George