rich12545 Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 It looks very much like EoS now works fine on my computer since I installed win7. I still don't know what the problem was but it was obviously software and not hardware related. But the game imo has a way to go. The ai players simply don't expand well. I'm playing the demo, had virtually the whole map and the ai (the highest) had three islands. I sunk a transport that had one artillery on it and that's all. This was on the 1940 ruleset so the ai had no complicated stuff to mess with. I'm going to see how things go in the next month or two before repurchasing. Unless there are some positive things regarding the ai that are in the release version that aren't in the demo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 It looks very much like EoS now works fine on my computer since I installed win7. I still don't know what the problem was but it was obviously software and not hardware related. But the game imo has a way to go. The ai players simply don't expand well. I'm playing the demo, had virtually the whole map and the ai (the highest) had three islands. I sunk a transport that had one artillery on it and that's all. This was on the 1940 ruleset so the ai had no complicated stuff to mess with. I'm going to see how things go in the next month or two before repurchasing. Unless there are some positive things regarding the ai that are in the release version that aren't in the demo. Are you running the latest version? I ask because there was a bug a while ago that was causing problems with the AI. I run AI-vs-AI games overnight, and when I check them in the morning, the AI has generally taken over the entire map - sometimes, some of the AI players have been eliminated or one of them has won the game. (Yeah, my computer gets quite a workout. When I'm not writing software, it's busy running AI-vs-AI games.) I guess I'll check if there's some unusual quirk in the Demo map that is tripping up the AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich12545 Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 Yes I always update to the latest. Please let me know if there's an ai problem with the demo. Btw, running overnight might not tell you how aggressively the ai expands. He might expand too slowly but an overnight would give him plenty of time.. In my example, the ai had three islands so he did expand, just not very well. You might try running for 100 turns on a medium map and then check. Just an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Yes I always update to the latest. Please let me know if there's an ai problem with the demo. Btw, running overnight might not tell you how aggressively the ai expands. He might expand too slowly but an overnight would give him plenty of time.. In my example, the ai had three islands so he did expand, just not very well. You might try running for 100 turns on a medium map and then check. Just an idea. I'd be interested to know what you think of the newer AI - the one in version 1.01.5026. I focused a lot on the AI over the last week, and discovered a few problems. One of them caused the AI to fumble picking up ground units. In the old version, it often worked (so the bug wasn't completely obvious), but, during game-replay, I could see that sometimes the AI had their expansion undermined by the bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich12545 Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 I just started a new game last night and, depending on playing time, will finish tonight or tomorrow and will post results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I just started a new game last night and, depending on playing time, will finish tonight or tomorrow and will post results. Hope it comes out well (crosses fingers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich12545 Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 I'm in the end game and sorry it doesn't look good. Still some shroud so I don't know exactly how many islands the elite ai has but not many. And although I already have several warships I have not come across one from the ai. I'll finish the game most of the way (later) and send you the save so you can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I'm in the end game and sorry it doesn't look good. Still some shroud so I don't know exactly how many islands the elite ai has but not many. And although I already have several warships I have not come across one from the ai. I'll finish the game most of the way (later) and send you the save so you can see. This is what my 3-AI-Player game looked like after 91 turns on a 1600x1200 map. I will say that the AI does have a tendency right now to ignore small low-value islands that it should pickup. But, it's captured plenty of land based on this screenshot: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich12545 Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 You didn't make this clear so I'll make a couple of assumptions. Correct me if I'm wrong. 1. There are three elite ai players, no human. 2. What your picture shows is all of the explored territory by all three ai players. If those two are correct then I think, no, that's not very good early expansion. I'm on turn 72 in my demo game against one elite player. I have maybe 75% of the territory. I've only come across one ai ship, a transport, which I sunk. I have several warships including destroyers, subs, cruisers and a battleship. I would expect an elite ai player to have at least 75% of what I have and it's not even close. But if it was then I could play on a larger map against 4-5 elite ai players and have a good game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 You didn't make this clear so I'll make a couple of assumptions. Correct me if I'm wrong. 1. There are three elite ai players, no human. Three veteran AI players. 2. What your picture shows is all of the explored territory by all three ai players. No, it's the territory captured by the three AI players. Just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I thought I'd compare the AI performance against human performance. A while back, we played four human players + 1 AI on a similar map. We actually played on a 1400x1200 map (whereas the three AI are on a 1600x1200 map). Here's my comparison: 4 Human players + 1 AI (the Japanese), turn 30: 3 Veteran AI players, turn 30: 4 Human players + 1 AI, turn 30, Islands Captured: Brit - 3.5 Large Islands, 2 small islands Moon - 2 Large Islands, 1 small island ND - 3 Large Islands Steve - 2 Large Islands 3 Veteran AI players, turn 30: Germany - 3 Large Islands French - 2 Large Islands US - 2.5 Large Islands 4 Human players + 1 AI, turn 30, Cities and Resources Captured: Brit - 5 Cities, 10 Resources Moon - 4 Cities, 6 Resources ND - 4 Cities, 8 Resources Steve - 4 Cities, 5 Resources 3 Veteran AI players, turn 30: US - 5 Cities, 5 Resources Germany - 4 Cities, 9 Resources French - 3 Cities, 4 Resources 4 Human players + 1 AI, turn 50: 3 Veteran AI players, turn 50: 4 Human players + 1 AI, Turn 50, Islands Captured: Brit - 4.5 Large islands, 2 small islands Moon - 4 Large islands, 2 small islands ND - 3 Large islands Steve - 2 Large islands (* was invaded by the AI) 3 Veteran AI players, turn 50: Germany - 4 Large islands French - 3 Large Islands US - 3 Large Islands, 1 small island 4 Human players + 1 AI, Turn 50, Cites and Resources Captured: Brit - 5 Cities, 17 Resources Moon - 6 Cities, 12 Resources ND - 6 Cities, 13 Resources Steve - 3 Cities, 6 Resources (* was invaded by the AI) 3 Veteran AI players, turn 50: Germany - 5 Cities, 18 Resources French - 6 Cities, 9 Resources US - 7 Cities, 10 Resources Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich12545 Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 This is interesting. I meant area captured, not explored, my poor wording. In these examples the territories are much closer to each other than in the demo game I played. I sent you the save on turn 72 so you can compare. So it's difficult to compare this with the demo because of the different setups. It looks like maybe you can get a better game with fewer but larger islands. Please take a look at the save I sent you and comment. Maybe the ai isn't made for that kind of game and will work well in different setups but that's not available on the demo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich12545 Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 Brit, I just resigned on that game I sent you to get the stats, turn 72 against one elite ai player. I had 35% 157.7 population, the ai had 7% 31.9 population. The ai was 20% of my total. I think an elite player should be at least 75%. It will never be as good as a human but for elite I think 75% is reasonable to expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Brit, I just resigned on that game I sent you to get the stats, turn 72 against one elite ai player. I had 35% 157.7 population, the ai had 7% 31.9 population. The ai was 20% of my total. I think an elite player should be at least 75%. It will never be as good as a human but for elite I think 75% is reasonable to expect. I took a look at your game. The AI seemed to get hung up early in the game. I did notice that one of his units had some sort of movement glitch (he gave his artillery orders to attack a city, but the unit was on the coast and wasn't moving). Other than that, I'm not sure why the AI was so slow to expand, or if it has something to do with the AI's starting position. He seemed to just sail around capturing resources instead of invading islands. Here's the state of your game on turn 60: Rich - 12 Cities, 27 Resources AI - 3 Cities, 18 Resources I ran the same map a few times with 2 AI players against each other. (I don't remember if I set the AI to veteran or elite.) Here's their results on turn 60: Game 1, Turn 60: US - 8 Cities, 17 Resources German - 6 Cities, 17 Resources Game 2, Turn 60: US - 8 Cities, 14 Resources German - 7 Cities, 12 Resources The AI in these games did quite a bit better than the AI in your game, although they're still lagging behind you. (You seemed to have a pretty efficient pattern for expanding, and you didn't lose a single unit in battle while capturing your first five cities - which is pretty lucky.) I don't quite know why the AI was so lame in your game. I'll have to try it again and put an AI player in the same starting location. Out of curiosity, I took a look at your capture totals on turn 50 to our capture totals in the 4 human+1 AI player game, you were also quite a bit ahead of us. I think you were already up to 11 cities on turn 50, and my previous comment had all human players at 5-6 cities per human player. (Although, the spacing between the islands might be different, as well.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich12545 Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 Couple of things. Why was an artillery unit trying to capture a city? Shouldn't that be for infantry and armor only? Artillery is a support unit. In your two games that you ran, by turn 60, were the ai players building warships by then? I had a situation in this game I sent you where a transport got stuck on the coast near a friendly city. I went there to pick up an armor. I had to set a waypoint perpendicular to the coastline to get it to move. So it seems there might be a movement problem along coasts. One of the most difficult things to program in games like this is production choices for the ai. In an island game, artillery is pretty much a waste except maybe (later in the game) in a city for defense. The ai needs TR, IN and AR. Plus a few aircraft for exploring. Then, at a point, needs to start building warships. That point would be difficult to program. If by turn 60 the ai has about 65-75% of what a human has (in cities and warships), that's ok. Because the human can play against 4-5 ai and have a good game. I also think that in a game like this, playing only against the ai, all players should start at war with each other. This business of getting all those messages because you cross a border, in a game like this against ai only, doesn't make much sense and it is only irritating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 In your two games that you ran, by turn 60, were the ai players building warships by then? Yes, the AI completed a Battleship on turn 54. One of the most difficult things to program in games like this is production choices for the ai. In an island game, artillery is pretty much a waste except maybe (later in the game) in a city for defense. The ai needs TR, IN and AR. Plus a few aircraft for exploring. Then, at a point, needs to start building warships. That point would be difficult to program. The AI's decision to build things like warships is based on things like how many unowned cities and resources are around, and how close other players are. If by turn 60 the ai has about 65-75% of what a human has (in cities and warships), that's ok. Because the human can play against 4-5 ai and have a good game. I also think that in a game like this, playing only against the ai, all players should start at war with each other. This business of getting all those messages because you cross a border, in a game like this against ai only, doesn't make much sense and it is only irritating. (nod) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich12545 Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 I really like that the ai has an actual decision making process to determine what to build. Maybe refining that in the early game (first 50-75 turns) would solve the slow expansion problem. Another idea is to allow setting the number of start cities per player. So, for example, the human can start with three while all ai players start with four each. This would offset the ai not being as smart as a human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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