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Demo - Going to Town


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I am just demoing Combat Mission Shock Force and it is a lot of fun most of the time. However, sometimes I find myself getting really frustrated by the results of some of the firefights.

Example 1.

I moved half a squad (5 men) plus a medium mg into the second floor of the large grey building at the far end of the board so they could cover my general advance that was attempting to secure the Government complex by a sweeping outflanking move. I thought that with that sort of firepower (especially the MG team) and the advantage of height any infantry in the bushes to the right should be vulnerable.

My teams soon saw a Kornet ATGM. So far so good. However when they engaged they failed to kill the ATGM and then got hit and pretty much wiped out by the ATGM firing back having caused no casualties to the ATGM crew. I was surprised by that result and would like to know if it was realisic. I'm no military expert but I would have thought in a firefight between a Kornet ATGM in bushes at 300m or so and an MMG and half a squad in what appears to be a fairly sturdy building the Kornet team would be in trouble?

Example 2.

I had half a squad (5 men after split for assault) in Objective Ruby. They were engaged by a rifle squad (including an RPG) from the flat roof of the single story building that is part of the Government complex (Objective diamond). They immediately returned fire and I was expecting that with the advantages they enjoyed of much better cover and presumably superior training the Syrians would be quickly eliminated or at least forced to exit the roof since they were on a bare rooftop completely exposed. Instead the RPG operater returned fire and wiped my team out. I was surprised, especially as whenever I put my guys on a roof they seem to get killed very quickly.

Are such results typical of CMSF or is it just the demo or just me?

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1. If an ATGM hits a building, the occupents are going to be pretty badly hurt. The warhead on a Kornet is the equivilant of 10kg of TNT! If the kornet team were well trained and in cover, they might well be able to get a shot off. I would expect the MG to supress them but the game is unpredictable.

2. It was probably just a fluke - my RPG guys tend to die before they get a shot off! Having said that, an RPG would really ruin your day if it hit you so I would advise trying to concentrate your firepower more to suppress the enemy faster. That would apply to question 1 too. Even western forces are not invulnerable so make sure your troops can support each other quickly, especially in MOUT!

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Well....one of the great things about CMSF is the "Oh Crap" moments.

Unfortunatly, sometimes there seems to be some strange outcomes now and again.

In your first example I agree: a MG spraying lead downrange at a ATGM team would dominate the situation rather quickly ALMOST everytime. I have always felt that there is a small problem with MG's in the game. They dont shoot long enough bursts and the need more bullet dispersion.

In your second example I have to say that RPG's are a real indoor team killer. Try to fight them with more distance between you and the enemy. This is where the US shines. Rooftops....I stay away from them as well. I usually waste the enemy on rooftops so I will say that you ran into a quirk minus the RPG. They are deadly.

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Thanks for the quick replies. Very interesting feedback.I was wondering if the problem with the Kornet could be that only the missile is exposed (and hence might not be vulnerable) and the crew were in cover? Otherwise I couldn't understand it.

As for the result against the rifle team on the rooftop I don't have a problem with what happened to my guys when they got hit by the RPG. I guess what surprised me was that the RPG gunner survived / hung around long enough to get the shot off and that his shot was accurate when he was coming under fire himself. Guess it is possible though and I just wanted to get a feel from more experienced players whether that was a 'typical' result or an exception.

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So much of situations like the ones you describe come down to luck.

IME, if US infantry gets the drop on red forces units like RPGs and ATGMs, the red units will *usually* become heavily suppressed and/or killed before they can get an effective shot off. Blue small arms fire is extremely accurate and deadly. A significant exception would be when the Red unit has very good cover -- in this case the volume of fire from a single fire team might not be enough to suppress/neutralize.

But sometimes an RPG gunner just gets lucky and drops a rocket right in the middle of one of my squads before he dies. Never seems to happen when I play Red, but happens all the time when I'm playing Blue....

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One yet-unasked question which has as much of a bearing on the realisticness as any of the other factors: Is the "Going To Town" scenario in question the US Army SBCT version or the USMC version? With the specifying of 5-man half-squads, it sounds like it was the SBCT version, but I'll make these points anyway.

In the USMC version, the main OPFOR units are Syrian Special Forces -- well trained, well equipped, and highly motivated. They're apt to be a match (in terms of training and motivation, if not in weaponry, yet not in numbers) for the BLUFOR's Marine infantry. Being well trained and highly motivated, a Syrian SF ATGM team is not as likely as one might think to be supressed by a half-squad's fire.

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But sometimes an RPG gunner just gets lucky and drops a rocket right in the middle of one of my squads before he dies. Never seems to happen when I play Red, but happens all the time when I'm playing Blue....

I share in that one.Especially when it comes to tanks.The red guys usually (not always) nail mine with the first RPG shot disabling my tanks, but when it's the other way around it takes 3-4 RPGs to disable a blue tank.Figure that out.Dumb luck I guess.

In example 2,

In some cases you have some brave foe who chooses to stick his neck out and risk taking the shot.Sometimes he gets lucky and saves himself as well as his fellow soldiers and sometimes he gets mowed down before the shot goes off.It's a hair raising moment when you see your own troops doing the same thing.Sometimes it plays out as a heroic moment that the pixel troop did to save the day for his team, sometimes it turns out to be a disaster that costs more pixel lives to be lost.I always found that rooftops gave me more casualties and it was best to keep special units(Sniper,FO,C2,Recon,Jav) on a roof top, unless you practically completely dominate the high ground view with many eyes and guns.Rooftop shoot outs can be deadly when explosives go off and whoever can release quickly the most volume of rockets with grenade fire first, will win.Keep a low profile on roofs or dominate them with a heavy load of eyes and guns that are scattered to cover all angles and the same time.

EDIT: The sneaky RPG shots I usually fall victim to, are the ones where 2 teams engage each other when spotted, then the firefight quickly stops and no one is shooting until someone launch's an RPG.When it gets quiet fast,It's usually an indicator that a second shoot out will eventually come alive between the 2 teams again,because eventually an RPG will be launched catching the same team they were engaged with off guard.Because of that, if I find a firefight was resolved to quick I put down area fire to make sure I don't catch a sneaky RPG shot..

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