WWII Global Scenario Idea: Global Bunta

[JerseyJohn]

Late Winter 1940

The war in Europe has gone close to its historical course except for the BEF having been cut off in Belgium and, ultimately, forced to surrender.

In Britain the Norway fiasco is blamed on Churchill as First Lord of the Admiralty when word comes out that it was, like Galipolli 25 years earlier, his own big project. The government suffers a loss of confidence and falls with one of the moderates becoming the new prime minister. Public outcry is to end the now very unpopular war.

Briatin and France sue for peace after the fall of the Low Countries, a decimated French Army without mobile reserves desperately digging in without hope of victory and, in Britain, every ablebodied man is put in uniform but the loss of the entire BEF makes the situation seem hopeless.

Result:

German terms are exceedingly light. Germany to keep whatever it conquered, including the parts of Northern France where its troops were assembling as negotiations were being conducted.

-- This would be a strip between France and Belgium, several French cities from Sedan on the German border to the Channel ports in Flanders.

Western Poland,

Denmark,

Norway,

Belgium,

Holland,

Luxembourg

and the occupied French territory (Sedan to Flanders) goes to Germany.

-- -- France is not Vichy, it has Paris, Normandy, Brittany etc.

-- Eastern Poland goes to the USSR.

Germany granted rights to conquered Belgium's colony of the Congo

and conquered Holland's colony of The East Indies. German task force led by BCs Gneisnau and Scharnhorst embark with troop ships for Congo. Retrurning to Germany they embark again with troops for The East Indies.

-- Iceland and all other former Belgium, Dutch, Danish and Norwegian colonies granted independence.

Britain and France sign a 10 Year nonaggression pact with Germany and grant favored trade status to the Reich.

The United States congress passes through rearmament legislation and guarantees Iceland's Independence.

-- Adolf Hitler is Time Magazine's man of the year and winner of the 1940 Nobel Peace Prize for ending what threatened to become a war of global proportions.

Meanwhile -- the USSR demands Finland and Sweden allow a Soviet rail line be built across their countries to Norway, where it demands Germany grant a 99 year lease to the USSR for one of the major year round ports.

Hitler does not give a direct answer and, instead, begins shifting armies to its Polish territory. Shortly afterwards Hungary, Rumania and Bulgaria join Germany and Italy. German troops and air units begin arriving in Rumania to guarantee its sovereignty against aggression from an unnamed major power.

-- Elsewhere,

*Italy casts its eyes on Yugoslavia and Greece while Ribbentrop visits both countries with offers for them to join the Axis.

*Japan makes a deal with Germany for East Indies oil, rubber and other natural resources, and a similar trade deal with the USSR for other essential resources, enabling it to ignore the U. S. embargoes and proceed further with its war of aggression in China.

*The United States applies pressure on Argentina, Brazil and several other South American states to sign a Western Hemisphere Pact of Nations renouncing ties, treaties and trade with any member of the European Axis. It is accepted immediately by Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Panama and several other states, but does not receive a favorable reception the larger South American nations, who refuse to sign.

At Start -- Scenario begins with all nations at peace; tension between Germany and the USSR; tension between the USA and Germany and the USA and Japan.

All thoughts and discussion welcome. :cool:

[arado234]

If this had really happened(im soooooooooo glad it didnt)I can see so much potential for backstabbing.Hitler no doubt attacks Russia feeling his back is secure.IF he was able to defeat Russia imho France and England would have to giveup even more(especially France)or face total destruction.In the end I can see a MAJOR showdown against a VASTLY larger American armed force with catastrophic consequences for all.There is noway I believe Hitler would be content untill he had it all.I wouldnt be at all suprised to see Atomic and chemical weapons used.YAHOOOO for everyone.It probably would come down to the side with the best technology for delivering W.M.D.s long distance.I would bet on Germany to have that tech.first

Ok someone else give their 2cents worth.

[SeaMonkey]

Needless to say,"I love it". I see the Balkans and possibly Turkey being the catalyst for the Axis vs USSR scenario notwithstanding the Scandanavian friction.

Now does Germany have enough petroleum? UK and France are suppliers, but does Germany feel like the USSR without the Caucasus oil hampers the Red Army operations and gives them an advantage? If so, then perhaps Germany makes a run through Turkey(an ally) into the region to deny USSR the oil supplies.

Now this causes UK and France to be uncomfortable because of the proximity to Iraqi oil fields of Kirkuk. Once USSR has been attacked then possibly USA, seeing that they need to be pro-active(a stretch...I know), work with UK, USSR, and clear the Iranian territory for lend lease movement and additional oil supplies. Arabia should somehow enter into the mix as their oil supplies are also to be considered and of course the UK/France cooperation would have to be clandestine at this time owing to the treaty of nonbelligerency.

As Germany and Italy prosecute the war with USSR and the Reds get into a more desperate situation, USA opens up an additional lend lease route into Vladivostok, now you know where this will go. Japan, being an ally of Axis, starts to interdict those lend lease supplies, subliminally, and eventually the intercepts cause undue losses of US maritime assets( remember WW1, unrestricted submarine activities).

Now we got us a full blown WW2, starting with the Tripartite vs US+USSR, with UK/France waiting in the wings to exact revenge when the possibility of Axis weakness presents itself?

Anybody buying?

[Snowstorm]

Although I think Hitler would have insisted on more in France, I think the scenario is plausible. Here are my thoughts:

Under this situation, I can see the Germans having basically two large troop concentrations, one in Poland as was the case, perhaps an equal one or smaller near Turkey (assuming the Balkans again enter the Axis fold). Now from this point, the size of the force near Turkey depends on how successful Germany is at getting Turkey to join them. If Turkey does not, I can see the terrain of Turkey becoming a giant obstacle to the push east into the Middle East and toward the Caucusus region, unless it can find a better location south along the east coast of the Mediterranean.

This also brings another question: how much of an issue of Turkey joining the Axis might it affect the Axis striking through the southern Black Sea (with assistance from the Italian Navy?) toward the Caucusus region or Sevestapol through that route?

[arado234]

SnowStorm you can bet that after the Turks were''encourged''to become friendly to Germany that Hitler would be coming through the back way and for sure the Caucasus would be a MAJOR target.Russia would be in ALOT of trouble if Stalin went ahead with his officer purge and didnt listen to what Generals he had left.Also if he chose to keep on ignoring most of what his spies were telling him then I dont know if Russia could hang on.With Germany not suffering the losses in the Battle of Britain and no fighting in Africa then it would even be harder for Russia.

[Snowstorm]

Oh I agree with you Arado, I am just wondering aloud just what the strategy would have been to seize the Caucusus. It seems to me there are several different strategies one could use to do this.

Also, another thought:

Under this scenario, I would think Stalin (and the Russian forces) would NOT be as surprised by a German attack as they were before. I would think with this scenario they would be better prepared for the attack. Prepared enough? Well, that's what this scenario is for, but if I were designing the scenario, I think I would have better ( or more) forces protecting the Russian borders in this circumstance to start out with than they did historically.

[JerseyJohn]

Wrote this post while Snowstorm and Arado were posting their last two, but I think the comments remain relevant.

Thank you, Arado, SeaMonkey and Snowstorm. Enjoyed all of your posts and yes, SeaMonkey, I do buy into what you're saying. :cool:

Arado, your speculation on WMDs being developed is very significant because with the addition of Norway (heavy water) and the Congo (uranium) Germany would have suddenly been in a much stronger position than she was historically; plus, she'd have been able to progress without having to worry about air and commando raids on her plants.

Of course a big step from there would have been delivery systems. Germany would have needed to develop heavy bombers because rocketry, even with a huge amount of research, would be unlikely to develop to the point of carrying detonating nuclear warheads (as opposed to more primitive small radius dirty bombs) till the historical time of the mid-50s. I'm sure Germany would immediately have begun development of something similar to the B-17, which was capable of carrying an A-bomb, but it would have been some time before it could have something larger, comparable to the B-29.

-- Prior to the war Germany had a flying jet fighter prototype and the UK was beginning to make progress in their own jet research. Italy was working on jet engines and the U. S., though not as advanced as either Germany or Britain was also beginning work on jet aircraft.

Then there were the flying wing designs being developed in both Germany (Horten brothers) and the United States (Northrup?), with neither program seeming to be aware of the other. Perhaps an A-bomb carrying bomber would have emerged from one of those programs.

SeaMonkey Really glad you're enthusiastic about these ideas. I think everything you're saying makes sense. And I'm sure the UK and France, as you said, would have been chomping at the bit to find a way out of their non-aggression pact with Germany, and also a way to alter the favored trade aggreement that would enable Germany to invade the USSR in the first place. France, of course, would have been in a much more vulnerable position than Britain, with her NW coast and the entire northern strip of her country occupied by Germany, making the still existing Maginot Line completely worthless.

Also, from their starting point, it's extremely hard to see either the British or French people having any enthusiasm at all for another war with Germany. I'd give their throwing in with the allies (each guaged individually) a very low probability. In Britain's case it would start at 0 with a very slow climb rate, and with France it would be -25, with an even lower climb rate. Of course both could enter the war, but I think it would take some abusiveness from the Germans; possibly, if the U. S. entered, a demand from Hitler that Britain and France dow the United States. I believe that might well have backfired on Germany.

Snowstorm I think it's more likely that Germany would have looked to exploit anti-British and anti-French sentiments in the Middle East rather than looking for either an invasion of Turkey, or for an invasion of the Caucasus.

I believe it would have gone something like this:

1) Germany reminds Turkey of its war with Greece right after WWI, which was caused by Britain and France backing the Greek government in a bid to grab the Dardanelles. Germany also stokes up old enmities from that time in Russia throwing the Turks out of the southern Caucasus which was signed over to them in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. With the war against Britain and France concluded in Germany's favor, Turkey would not be afraid of backing the losing side. Big shift toward the Axis. Next comes secret negotiations. Germany agrees to help restore the southern Caucasus to Turkey if it joins her in a war on the USSR. I think Turkey, at this point, joins the Axis and begins preparing for the coming war against its giant neighbor.

2) Germany covertly stokes anti-French movements in Damascus.

3) Germany does the same, covertly, in Iraq, sending arms and obsolescent air craft while bringing Iraqi military personal to Germany for training as specialists and elite cadres.

4) Germany woos Iran diplomatically.

5) Barbarossa begins at about the historical time but with Germany having a much greater resource base and not having to worry about a second front. And, significantly, having Turkey allied on its southern flank.

-- My guess is the war ends with the Soviets pushed back to the Urals, a treaty signed, a lot of changes to the map of what had been European Russia, and the truncated USSR, probably with Stalin executed or assassinated by his inner circle, working day and night on the regaining, either through war or revolution, of its lost territories.

-- -- Possible Russo-Japanese alliance? Russia to later strike back into the lost European states with Japan invading The German East Indies!

There's also the question of Germany's lost WWI colonies. After writing the original post I wondered if maybe I should have included that as part of the peace negotiations -- Britain had long been dangling them in front of Hitler as part of other offers, perhaps Germany would have taken them now in exchange for the not supporting any Spanish - Italian efforts to disrupt the British strongpoints of Gibraltar-Malta-Suez/Alexandria.

All sorts of possibilities. :eek:

[Snowstorm]

JJ,

I must admit I did not examine the diplomatic possibilities as you put forth, only the military ones at this point. I think you're right. Oh course, as you said, the strategic possibilities are many (perhaps almost endless) and certainly exciting to consider as far as the new global game is concerned! :cool:

[SeaMonkey]

I really like that scenario Snow wrote about the Black Sea possibility coupled with the southern effort into Syria, it kind of surrounds Turkey and solidifies an Axis effort to get her to join. The pressure would ensure a compliant Turkey, IMO, and we know USSR is going to be very paranoid about any arrangement Turkey has with the Axis.

What about Scandanavia though JJ? I'm with your demand that USSR is making for all weather ports, you know, I know, we all know that's very important to the Reds. Its, at least, an equitable position to the southern possibilities and a very real area for initiation of hostilities. So...how does it erupt? You kind of left us hanging and this is not my area of expertise, but I'm buying the circumstances you've outlined.

The fuel's there, it makes sense, but I need a spark for ignition.

[arado234]

JersyJohn I saw an Excellent show on the Horton229.It was made out of wood(our radar at the time only gave 2min of warning time of an attack.I believe its top speed was around 650 m.p.h.) and was so far advanced above anything we had that nothing in our arsenal(except sheer numbers)could even come close to hit.It could even out fly the ME262 in speed and the Mustang in dogfighting capabilties.The Ami.aircraft was just coming off the drawing board to the test stage.The Horton229 flew in late 1944.If the Hortons had been given all they needed they figure they would have had a working combat ready aircraft by early to mid 1944.It would have been REAL bad for our air boys for a while.One of the reasons the Hortons wanted to build it was to get back at the Brits.for shooting down and killing one of their cousins or some other realtive during the Battle of Britain.

As far as building a rocket to hit America,Germany was working on the A10 which when completed(it was supposed to be by mid to late 1940s)would be able to hit America.With no bombing of Penumunde(Im guessing ay the spelling)they may have been able to build it.

[JerseyJohn]

Snowstorm, Yes, the diplomacy angle adds a huge dimension to the game. Combining it with the wargame aspect makes things a lot more interesting. :cool:

SeaMonkey, The Scandinavian scheme is historical! It was part of the disasterous trip Molotov made to Berlin. He demanded the rail line across Scandinavia with an ice free port on the Norwegian coast. Hitler left the room. Ribbentrop stayed behind to try and convince Molotov that Germany would soon have Britain sueing for peace when the air raid siren went off. On their way down to shelter Molotov said, "If Britain is so badly beaten then whose bombers are we hiding from?" Possibly Hitler might have negotiated an ice free port deal with the USSR, but Molotov acted in a beligerant and arrogant manner from the start. It's hard to believe he did that on his own so we have to assume he was following Stalin's instructions. In any case there couldn't have been a worse approach. Hitler clammed up and proceeded with his plans to invade the USSR.

Arado, I'm pretty sure I saw that documentary too. If I'm not mistaken the Horton 229 was exactly as you've described it, a fantastic fighter that would most certainly have made mincemeat of anything going against it. The big problem was Germany didn't have glue at that time that was able to keep it from falling apart. It was a flying deathtrap. I remember hearing that few if any record survived the war of this plane's actual combat record. It was used by the Hitler Youth -- again, if this is the plane I'm thinking of -- and again, there just isn't any record of how well they fared.

I don't know if the glue issue was that Germany couldn't have made it, or if they just didn't have right materials to make it at the time the plane was finally put into production.

Like the ME262 it entered service when it was all but impossible to affect the war's outcome. Germany needed the ME262 in 1942. Which might have been possible as Germany had a flying jet prototype in the spring of 1939! It was pushed aside because Goering and his fellow WWI Ace, Ernst Udet, didn't think there was any future in jet fighters, at least not till after the next war had been concluded without them. Probably, with Goering and Udet's backing, the ME262 might have entered service as a dedicated fighter plane as early as 1941; the fools actually scrapped the jet fighter program when Germany invaded Poland.

-- By extension the Hortons, who were very young at the time, might well have had something like the 229 ready for manufacture by 1943.

Lucky break for the Allies that Goering and Udet were running things for the Luftwaffe instead of more competent Nazis. Ironically both men took their own lives; Udet during the war out of manic depression, and Goering to cheat the hangman.

[Hubert Cater]

Great idea for a campaign Jersey John and I think a mod of this, once the game is released, would be fantastic

While not exactly like this campaign suggestion, we do have a pretty interesting "what-if" campaign that will be included with the initial release that hopefully will get even more creative juices flowing. More information on this likely early next week

[JerseyJohn]

Incredible!

Thank you Hubert. Can't wait to play this game, and to see all the things you're doing with it. :cool::)

[PowerGmbH]

Jersey John: i think two of this hypotetic scenario options make it impossible:

"Meanwhile -- the USSR demands Finland and Sweden allow a Soviet rail line be built across their countries to Norway, where it demands Germany grant a 99 year lease to the USSR for one of the major year round ports."

Why should Russia desire this? there is no Historic nor Strategic need, as Murmansk fits this year-round propose, AND Russia had no historical struggle over Norway

this results in a continouus Russian Germany Friendship relation exempt of heavy tensions, possibly even in partnership.

Are you shure about you statement that Molotow suggested this Port? it sounds more like a Hoax or maybe a Strategic Gambling from Molotow?

Stay the last tensions:

" *Japan....enabling it to ignore the U. S. embargoes and proceed further with its war of aggression in China."

this one exludes the following:

"Scenario begins with all nations at peace; tension between Germany and the USSR; tension between the USA and Germany and the USA and Japan"

If all are at peace, not even Japan agressive, the scenario may tend to fail.

Would maybe Japan also have sucessfuly created it's Chinese puppy Wang Ching Wei Gouvernment then the War possibly could have been ended.

Generally said, the weaker part (Axis) MUST be "disturbed" in order to launch an Offensive from which it knows it's impossible to win. And the derangements had their roots in WW1 as well as the great Depression, so a 1940 "at peace" situation, may stay without the needed "trigger".

[Snowstorm]

PowerGmbH,

Couldn't the diplomatic level in the first few turns be "set" by the programmers to have certain diplomatic levels to automatically raise at least a certain marginal amount (to be sped up or slowed down by diplomatic means of MPPs during the early game) to trigger automatic entry for some within a predetermined amount of time? It would still allow for some element of flexibility for awhile, but still guarantee certain events of war to occur to match with the intent of the mod developer for the scenario. Otherwise, a country (let's say a Balkan one) could be programmed to be attacked at the start of the scenario, leading to certain major countries to reach the war entry level, similar to England and France declaring war soon after the attack on Poland in Storm of Steel for example?

[JerseyJohn]

PowerGmbH,

... If all are at peace, not even Japan agressive, ...

Japan is definitely aggressive. It's invading China! My point was in this scenario it's getting its oil from the former Dutch East Indies, which is now the German East Indies by right of Germany having conquered Holland and sending a fleet and an army to put the place under German control. I know the Dutch had a small army and a small fleet there under Rear Admiral Dorman (?), who was in command at the Battle of the Java Sea, a total fiasco for the allies combined fleet, which was mainly sunk, and Admiral Dorman killed in action. I don't know if the arriving Germans would have had to fight the Dutch. The scenario assumption is that part of the peace treaty is that Germany gets the Congo and Indonisia from the Belgians and Dutch, respectively. Other colonies of conquered Belgium, Holland, Denmark and Norway, mainly in the Western Hemisphere, are granted their independence so as to avoid entanglements with the U. S..

There would be antagonism between the United States and Japan over the continuing Japanese invasion of China. I believe that puppet emperor, the last emperor of China, was set up by the Japanese in Manchuria. Japan would never have felt totally secure as long as the United States was in the Phillipines, which was scheduled to receive full independence in 1946. Does Japan wait? All things considered, as long as FDR's trade embargoes were bypassed by trading with Germany and the USSR, I believe they'd have concentrated on taking the rest of China; a gargantuan chore in itself. Meanwhile the United States might have attempted to get other nations involved in its Japanese embargo, probably in South America, along with the UK and France, all of which would serve to increase tensions. Also, Japan historically became apprehensive about the United States building up its defenses and naval forces in the Pacific.

I'm not making up Molotov's trip to Berlin. He was sent by Stalin to place demands on Germany because it was felt Russia was getting too little from the original pact signed in August 1939 with Ribbentrop. Russia really did want one of the Norwegian ports, and it wanted to be officially included in Hitler's Axis.

As for why the USSR would want a port on the Norwegian coast in addition to Archangeal and Murmansk, it could be those two were closed off part of the year by ice in the Arctic between themselves and the North Sea. Or, it could be Norway would have been a better location for a Soviet port. Or, it could be Stalin just wanted to get his foot in the Scandinavian door, and that's why Hitler never even responded.

US - German Tensions Because Germany would be establishing itself in The Congo and The East Indies, with probable future influence expanding to South America -- most immediately Brazil and Argentina. FDR was hostile to Hitler and the Nazis from the start of his first administration. There's no reason to believe he'd have been less hostile after Germany had defeated both Britain and France and, even though they still existed, along with their colonial empires, Germany too, more dangerous than ever, was beginning to extend itself globally. I'm sure the United States would have wanted to check that where ever possible. Overall I think it's more than justified to feel there would be a lot of bad relations between the U. S. and Germany.

Snowstorm, I agree. Putting some way of adjusting the level of hostilities between nations would make things more interesting.

Extremely enthused and encouraged by Hubert's post earlier today regarding these ideas, which apparently means it's all possible in game terms. Also, like everyone else, very eager to see what he's coming up with. :cool:

[Kuniworth]

PowerGmbH,

As for why the USSR would want a port on the Norwegian coast in addition to Archangeal and Murmansk, it could be those two were closed off part of the year by ice in the Arctic between themselves and the North Sea. Or, it could be Norway would have been a better location for a Soviet port. Or, it could be Stalin just wanted to get his foot in the Scandinavian door, and that's why Hitler never even responded.

Interesting it this is correct because there is another fleet base nearby that had a key importance in the norweigan campaign. As part of the ribbentrop-molotov pact the USSR leased a top secret fleet base to Germany - on russian soil! Thanks to this base german forces in Narvik could recieve supply and hold the city, as the Royal Navy effectively cut off supply ships from Germany.

This fleet base was simply referred to as "Base North" by the germans is located in the Litsa-fiord around 45 kilometers east of the norweigan-soviet border, 120 kilometers from Murmansk. The soviet union evacuated the population and completly sealed off the area to give the kriegsmarine complete secrecy. Beginning in the winter of 1939-40 this fleet base was fully operational and used by german supply ships even as the winter war was going on.

Today this base is called Zapadnaya Litsa and have replaced Murmansk as the main fleet base for the russian orthern navy. It's location make it less vunerable to be sealed off in case of a war with USA, compared to Murmansk.

[arado234]

JerseyJohn you may be thinking of the HE162(Salimander)?It did come apart during flight and was flowen by the Hitler Youth.The H229 wasnt.H229s biggest problem(from what I can recall)was it was quite time consuming to make.It was designed to absorb radar impulses.The glue the Germans used was mixed with plain ash and I cant remember what else.That and making the plane curved with minimal radar traps and angles made it a REAL nasty plane.From what I recall the test aircraft flew great but the pilot lost control(not sure why)and crashed it.It was designed to carry 4 30mm cannons and 2500 lb bomb load .It would have been perfect to bomb our heavy bomber bases in England.

The Germans also built the HE280 jet fighter in 1942.It to was better than the ME262 but because Heinkel didnt get along with Goering and the rest,Willy Messerschmidt(spelling?)got the contract to build the 262.Politicans sure are stupid at times.

[JerseyJohn]

Kuni, That's great information. So it seems part of the Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement was looking to the Norway operation. Elsewhere I read that during the Narvik operations Sweden allowed small German reinforcement and supply units to pass through its territory. The British had no way of knowing about it and didn't lodge any complaints, but those troops and supplies were vital to the trapped troops holding out till the Brits were forced to withdraw. At some point I've got to find a good book on the Norway Campaign.

I'm starting to wonder now exactly what that Molotov mission to Berlin was about. I'll see if I can find some more detailed information on it.

Arado, You've got it exactly right! There was a show recently, not sure if it was on the Military Channel, National Geographic, or The History Channel, about the making of an H-229 replica. I think it was 3::4 but I'm not certain. It was run through a wind tests and radar scans while atop a high crane, and passed everything exactly the way it was meant to. The engineers who took part in the project said the aircraft was way ahead of anything else from that time. They also said pretty what you did about how difficult and time consuming it was to wrap the material around the curved wood so it wouldn't show properly on radar. I think they found they had to assemble the pilot's area in two halves rather than one piece as they'd expected to do.

I also believe you're right on the plane flown by the Hitler Youth that was considered too unstable to risk trained pilots in. Wonder how they did in them? I think the commentator said there was a positive report menioned somewhere, but the figures themselves didn't survive the war.

A biography of Goering showed how he and Udet used to go on stag hunts with Willy Messerschmitt and other aircraft manufacturers and that's how contracts were decided upon. He was very corrupt and very incompetent, and Udet was only in there because he was Goering's friend. What a way to handle things. :eek:

[xwormwood]

Arado, You've got it exactly right! There was a show recently, not sure if it was on the Military Channel, National Geographic, or The History Channel, about the making of an H-229 replica. I think it was 3::4 but I'm not certain. It was run through a wind tests and radar scans while atop a high crane, and passed everything exactly the way it was meant to. The engineers who took part in the project said the aircraft was way ahead of anything else from that time. They also said pretty what you did about how difficult and time consuming it was to wrap the material around the curved wood so it wouldn't show properly on radar. I think they found they had to assemble the pilot's area in two halves rather than one piece as they'd expected to do.

I also believe you're right on the plane flown by the Hitler Youth that was considered too unstable to risk trained pilots in. Wonder how they did in them? I think the commentator said there was a positive report menioned somewhere, but the figures themselves didn't survive the war.

A biography of Goering showed how he and Udet used to go on stag hunts with Willy Messerschmitt and other aircraft manufacturers and that's how contracts were decided upon. He was very corrupt and very incompetent, and Udet was only in there because he was Goering's friend. What a way to handle things. :eek:

This plane wasn't ment to be flown by members of the Hitler youth.

The Horten brothers, while still members of the Hitler youth, build and flown their first protoype(s), which was then still a glider.

The Hitler youth encouraged young boys to fly gliders, as they would be this way later better material for the Luftwaffe cockpits.

The glue with coal dust was only used as spackling compound, at least thats what Karl Nickel said, who was responsible for the aerodynamic calculations for the HO229. Reimar Horten claimed in the 1980s that it was used together with paint for stealth reasons. The plane which got after the war into the USA wasn't painted, but thats the one which got tested, so this is at least a very controversial claim.

The HE162 was first ment to be flown by the Hitler youth because of the lack of trained pilots in early 1945.

This plane got rushed into production, therefor its problems.

quote wiki:

"...The difficulties experienced by the He 162 were caused mainly by its rush into production, not by any inherent design flaws.One experienced Luftwaffe pilot who flew it called it a "first-class combat aircraft." This opinion was mirrored by Eric "Winkle" Brown of the Fleet Air Arm (FAA), who flew it not only during post-war evaluations, but went on to fly it for fun after testing had completed. He considered it delightful to fly, although the very light controls made it suitable only for experienced pilots. He wrote about his 162 flights in Wings of the Luftwaffe, a description that has been reprinted in many media over the years.Brown had been warned to treat the rudder with suspicion due to a number of in-flight failures, but this warning was apparently not given to another RAF pilot, and one of the tailfins broke off during the Farnborough Air Show, killing him. ..."

[PowerGmbH]

Jersey John:

As far as i See, If Japan and China are Activa and at war, and one expects Germany having no tensions with Japan over Dutch Eas Indies, then the scenarion could be quite nice. One could then think of having Russia a Minor that can "flip-flop", this gives you possibilities that could represent an interisting outcome, based on the comments above. it should just have a 100% efficiencity by a way.

[JerseyJohn]

PowerGmbH I think Russia, Japan and Germany would all go for whatever opportunites the felt they could safely go for. At some point I think two out of the three of them would have to clash.

While Japan might initially have welcomed the opening up, through peaceful means, of Indonesia's resources for their own uses, they'd probably feel like, it being Asian after all, that they had the better claim to it and might even have slipped in before Germany was able to send occupation troops. The reason I think that would have taken extra time is they no doubt would have sent them with a heavy escort as there were Dutch destroyers in the waters.

Of course, it's always a possibility that, without a Free Dutch government in Great Britain, the Dutch troops and ships might have voluntarily acknowkedged themselves as part of Germany.

If the United States were really pushing things, it might then encourage both the Congo and East Indies to declare themselves independent with the United States guaranteeing their soveriegnty. In that case I'm sure Hitler would have sent garrisons strong enough to take the places; the question is whether or not the U. S. would have had naval squadrons waiting to intercept them. If so, what happens?

This plane wasn't ment to be flown by members of the Hitler youth.

The Horten brothers, while still members of the Hitler youth, build and flown their first protoype(s), which was then still a glider.

The Hitler youth encouraged young boys to fly gliders, as they would be this way later better material for the Luftwaffe cockpits.

The glue with coal dust was only used as spackling compound, at least thats what Karl Nickel said, who was responsible for the aerodynamic calculations for the HO229. Reimar Horten claimed in the 1980s that it was used together with paint for stealth reasons. The plane which got after the war into the USA wasn't painted, but thats the one which got tested, so this is at least a very controversial claim.

The HE162 was first ment to be flown by the Hitler youth because of the lack of trained pilots in early 1945.

This plane got rushed into production, therefor its problems.

quote wiki:

"...The difficulties experienced by the He 162 were caused mainly by its rush into production, not by any inherent design flaws.One experienced Luftwaffe pilot who flew it called it a "first-class combat aircraft." This opinion was mirrored by Eric "Winkle" Brown of the Fleet Air Arm (FAA), who flew it not only during post-war evaluations, but went on to fly it for fun after testing had completed. He considered it delightful to fly, although the very light controls made it suitable only for experienced pilots. He wrote about his 162 flights in Wings of the Luftwaffe, a description that has been reprinted in many media over the years.Brown had been warned to treat the rudder with suspicion due to a number of in-flight failures, but this warning was apparently not given to another RAF pilot, and one of the tailfins broke off during the Farnborough Air Show, killing him. ..."

Thank you, BrotherX. I don't think any combat craft was actually designed (originally) with the intention of sending Hitler Youth into battle, but by the time these things were being produced Germany was desperate and, as you said, a lot of Hitler Youth members had glider training so they were used. Their losses must have been hideous; a truly desperate move.

-- Good point about that mixture being used on the 229 for it's ability to disipate radar. I remember them saying that when they were putting the replica together.

I have to look up what the Horten Brothers designed after the war while in South America. I'm sure some people will say they worked on flying saucers. Well, who knows?!

[jon_j_rambo]

The United States is going to WASTE their time with Congo & all this other crap in WW2, is this a joke?

Nazi Germany, was a bunch of evil sick demented satanic people. They beat, destroyed, stole, murdered, tortured, brainwashed, bullied, & trashed 1/3 of the planet. They lost. Their souls are gone now, probably in Hell.

The United States was & is the good guys. We stood up to the Axis of Evil, and defeated them.

Same goes for Japan. Their evil plans of murder & conquest. They attacked Pearl Harbor with no declaration of war & for no reason. They provoked us and received the ultimate penalty, two nuclear bombs. To this day the Japanese government refuses to accept any blame. Not only that, they teach (brainwash) their youth in school with an opposite history. The Japs murdered soldiers of the United States & civilians. They put prisoners in pits & burned them alive. They Death March, the rape of China, the sickening things they did to Americans.

You people talk about the deaths of millions like you're playing a football game. Grow up, think. German & Japan were evil. They were not good guys.

Two of my Uncles fought in WW-2. They tried to kill my Uncles. My Uncles survived. I could careless about Germany & Japan.

[JerseyJohn]

Wow! That is absolutely brilliant.

[jon_j_rambo]

One of the things that could be reflected better in the Global Conquest, is morale. Right now, it is on a small scale. The Japanese didn't fight the same way (or as good) as the Americans.

The Japanese infantry were no match for the U.S. Marines on "equal terms". The Jap soldier consistantly had these problems:

1) Subject to panic when confronted by the unexpected. Jap leaders would prefer eleveated defenses, and predictable tactics. BUT when the Jap infantry were approach with something different, they erred on the side of 'panic'.

2) Not always steadfast in battle. Despite what the movies show in Banzie & such, the Japanese did not endure well in long battles. Mentally, they folded over time in attrition. While their Yankee counterparts were accustomed to travel to battle, build-up, and prepared for long battle.

3) The Jap soldier was VERY POOR in markmenship. Firefights based on skill favored the better shooting American soldier. The man reason the American soldier was better, practice. Most real Americans have learned hunting with the Dads. Pre WW-2 and certainly a distance from today's liberal gun haters, hunting had value. It saved many Yankee lives the ability to shoot better than a Jap.

4) Under certain conditions, the Jap infantry is unimaginative; he is a poor thinker when thrown "on his own". The free spirit of the American mind allowed for making quick thinking decisions. It's a cultural thing. Jap infantry were not allowed to "think", they were servants to their leaders. Of course the Yanks have "jarheads", but the jarhead was going to think a little bit better.

On the flip side, here's what I've always thought about Jap strengths:

a. Physically, he is hardy and strong.....repeat, Physically.

b. In prepared defenses, the Jap usually is tenacious unto death (this was not true in some instances)

c. The Jap is bold and courageous, particularly when his comrades are around and when he has terrain and firepower advantages.

d. Because of good training, the is generally "at home" in the jungle....relative to some kid from Michigan, Ohio, or Nebraska.

e. His discipline (especially fire discipline) is usually good. Despite the weakeness listed above, the Jap would endure underfire.

American leadership was the best on intelligence. Due to better training and the desire to win, the Yanks informed their soldiers much better BEFORE battle. Some of this advantage can be attributed to the Yanks being on the offensive against a basically fixed enemy (either Nazi or Jap). Both enlisted & officers were briefed better than the enemy.

World At War, from the best,

I'm the most interesting man in the world, stay thristy my friends,

-Legend