Warriors to go 40mm

[Noltyboy]

The bit that caught my eye was this

:eek:

Is it a typo for a million? as for 2 billion the UK could establish a space program!

2 Billion is a bit much as the quote ive heard is about 1.5mil per vehicle to be fully upgaded.

The CT40 looks only a little bigger than the M242 Bushmaster, the larger 30/35mm versions look bigger. Same for ammunition.

With modern targeting systems etc why the need for a high rate of fire? if you want to surpress someone you use the Co-Axial MG. Want to reach out and touch someone you have a very high probability of first round hit, the bigger the round the further and harder you can hit.

[John Kettler]

Is the Warrior firing DU, and are we talking BMP-2? A BMP-2 frontally isn't the easiest target to hit, being low, let alone kill, since the turret was uparmoured across the entire front (BMP-2 obr. 1984) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMP-2 to defeat the 25mm Bushmaster and similar, while the glacis creates great effective thickness,and the bars put shear loads on impacting projectiles, especially APFSDS, making projectile breakup likely.

http://pds16.egloos.com/pds/200909/13/89/f0060489_4aacdf5788b57.jpg

As the third link shows, the BMP-2 is laid out much like the Merkava, with the engine in the front, providing considerable passive protection to the crew compartment. That engine is Diesel, greatly reducing the fire hazard if hit.

http://www.defensedatainternational.com/html/bmp-2.jpg

Regards,

John Kettler

[flamingknives]

No DU for Warrior.

[Erwin.Rommel]

Is the Warrior firing DU, and are we talking BMP-2? A BMP-2 frontally isn't the easiest target to hit, being low, let alone kill, since the turret was uparmoured across the entire front (BMP-2 obr. 1984) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMP-2 to defeat the 25mm Bushmaster and similar, while the glacis creates great effective thickness,and the bars put shear loads on impacting projectiles, especially APFSDS, making projectile breakup likely.

http://pds16.egloos.com/pds/200909/13/89/f0060489_4aacdf5788b57.jpg

As the third link shows, the BMP-2 is laid out much like the Merkava, with the engine in the front, providing considerable passive protection to the crew compartment. That engine is Diesel, greatly reducing the fire hazard if hit.

http://www.defensedatainternational.com/html/bmp-2.jpg

Regards,

John Kettler

The warrior do not have APFSDS and Du rounds,however in my tests of the game,If I replace the Warrior with the Bradley, generally the result is the same(Ps:the Bradley has an advantage that the M242's rate of fire is higher than the rarden).the BMP also can take many hit of the 25mm rounds

The 25mm m791 APDS(50mm vertical/1000yards),M919 APFSDS(75mm/1000yards),the 30mm APDS(60mm/at 1000yards)of the warrior is far more powerful than you think,can easily penetrate the BMP1/2 which only can resistant the .50cal AP rounds(according to the wiki,the BMP-2's armour is broadly similar to the original BMP-1. Its frontal and side armour is no longer effective against the most recent .50-calibre SLAP [sabotted light anti-armour projectile] and the 25 mm cannon of the US M2 Bradley MICV or the British GKN Warrior IFV 30 RARDEN. Like the BMP-1, the rear doors of the BMP-2 are filled with diesel fuel offering some risk from incendiary rounds. These additional fuel tanks are shut off from the fuel system when in combat.in 1984 the BMP2 was uparmourd probably because the war in Afghanistan,the BMP can not resistant the enemy's 12.7mm and 14.5mm rounds),even according to the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2/M3_Bradley_Fighting_VehicleThe tungsten APDS-T rounds proved highly effective in Desert Storm being capable of knocking out many Iraqi vehicles including several kills on T-55 tanks. There have even been reports of kills against Iraqi T-72 tanks (at close range)

Back to the game ,in the CMSF there is no difficult for the 25mm or 30mm rounds to penetrate the armor of the BMP, the problem is the aftereffect of these rounds seems too small

[Noltyboy]

The warrior do not have APFSDS and Du rounds,however in my tests of the game,If I replace the Warrior with the Bradley, generally the result is the same(Ps:the Bradley has an advantage that the M242's rate of fire is higher than the rarden).the BMP also can take many hit of the 25mm rounds

The 25mm m791 APDS(50mm vertical/1000yards),M919 APFSDS(75mm/1000yards),the 30mm APDS(60mm/at 1000yards)of the warrior is far more powerful than you think,can easily penetrate the BMP1/2 which only can resistant the .50cal even according to the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2/M3_Bradley_Fighting_VehicleThe tungsten APDS-T rounds proved highly effective in Desert Storm being capable of knocking out many Iraqi vehicles including several kills on T-55 tanks. There have even been reports of kills against Iraqi T-72 tanks (at close range)

Back to the game ,in the CMSF there is no difficult for the 25mm or 30mm rounds to penetrate the armor of the BMP, the problem is the aftereffect of these rounds seems too small

How well is spalling recreated in the game?

[Battlefront.com]

The BMPs have two things going for them when hit by fairly small caliber cannon rounds:

1. Massively sloped frontal armor

2. Lots of dead space

This means if the BMP is facing the Warrior straight on it is at its maximum advantage in terms of deflecting hits. If the BMP's flanks are exposed to a Warrior then it's at its maximum advantage in terms of absorbing a hit. The passengers in back might not agree with that Spalling and direct kinetic damage are both modeled.

We've not had complaints about the realism of the Warriors for months now, so at present I'm inclined to think that there's nothing wrong with the simulation itself. That's not to say there isn't some sort of problem, I'm just saying it will take more than a few anecdotal examples to get us to spend time on looking for potential problems that have been somehow missed after all this time.

Steve

[flamingknives]

Dead space in a BMP? Where? What isn't full of vital equipment and people is chock-full of ammunition. It has no damage mitigation systems (i.e. spall liners) and the ammo is liable to go bang if disturbed. A 30mm APDS carries a fair whack of KE and probably puts more mass into the fighting compartment than an RPG.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

You didn't count people as dead space. As you rightly confirm, when hit by anything auto-cannon-ish BMP occupants turn in to dead space real quick. Point being, about half the bits you can hit from the side aren't things that's going to make the BMP stop running. Make it a little house of horror, yeah.

[hcrof]

Check the picture here. In the front of the BMP is a fair amount of empty space!

http://www.defensedatainternational.com/html/bmp-1.jpg

Obviously the left hand side is less well protected as the driver sits fairly far forward but a medium calibre centre of mass hit won't necessarily hit anything important. As for side hits, see Elmars comments. Even a close range 7.62 round can injure the occupents!

I believe that the latest BMP-2 export models might offer spall liners. Very important IMO!

As for the fuel in the doors, they are like the fuel tanks on the outside of Russian tanks. They are used for a road march and the fuel is supposed to be replaced by sand before combat.

[John Kettler]

Believe you'll find my post here pertinent to the discussion of IFV/ICV cannon capabilities. Was rather surprised myself by what I uncovered.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=89855&page=13

Spall liners for the export model BMP-2s are indeed an option. See penultimate full paragraph in write-up here.

http://www.warfare.ru/?lang=&catid=245&linkid=2305&linkname=BMP-2

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

Yup, as I stated the BMP as a vehicle has a lot of deadspace when shot at from the side. If there is nobody onboard then you don't even have to worry about the horrorshow inside.

A 30mm APDS may, or may not, have more KE than an RPG, but an RPG rounds don't get their kill power from KE rather by HEAT. I'd rather be in a vehicle with a 30mm APDS flying through it than an RPG round hitting in the same spot with the same degree of penetration. Plus, remember we're talking about damage to the vehicle anyway. A HEAT round hitting a BMP, and penetrating, will likely do more damage to the vehicle's sub systems than a SABOT round hitting the same spot.

Steve

[MikeyD]

Sounds like a munition can be too powerful. What was that old line from WWII? The BT fast tank was said by the Soviets to have an 'advantage' because any round penetrating would just pass out the other side, whereas for other vehicles the round would rattle around the interior for awhile.

[flamingknives]

More mass into the fighting compartment in terms of projectile and fragments.

RPGs penetrate due to the KE of the copper jet, which tends to be pretty focussed. There's that Abrams (with a spall liner) that had a jet cross the turret without hurting any of the crew. It took out the tank by hitting a junction box on the far wall, but caused no other damage.

Equally,

[Vark]

If the Warriors new gun is anything like the Bofors 40mm cannon I think sitting in a BMP, loaded or not would be unwise. Particularly interesting is the freeze frame showing the effects of spalling from the APFSDS round.

[Lethaface]

@Flamingknives,

I'm no expert in this, but I believe that the Abrams also has secondary armour with, among other, fire extinguishing properties. So apart from the shrapnel that is reduced by spall liners, there is more on the Abrams that isn't on a BMP. This secondary armour makes sure the copper jet of the RPG doesn't turn into a shower of white hot plasma upon entering the crew compartments.

I rather wouldn't be in any vehicle which is hit by anything at all! However I doubt that surviving a KE penetration is similar to a HEAT penetration when riding in a BMP. (apart from DU penetrators which have extra nasty effects).

[flamingknives]

While I would not consider myself an expert, I know a bit more about the subject than the average bear.

The primary casualty causing agent of any AP strike is fragments from the projectile and the armour. Spall liners stop a penetrating event forming a shower that covers the whole compartment. Heat and pressure effects are so minor as to be less than secondary. While a shaped charge jet will get very hot when passing through armour, it is a kinetic energy event, albeit provided by a warhead detonation rather than propellant in a gun. It doesn't turn into plasma.

[flamingknives]

Having done a little testing, I have come to an early conclusion that the BMP engine is very, very small. Having up to 15 30mm APDS hit BMP1sin the right-hand nose at 600m, not one out of nine had their engine damaged.

Will continue testing.

[Battlefront.com]

My understanding is that the armor of the BMPs is so thin that any significant sized AP round goes straight through and, therefore, causes minimal splintering due to the projectile basically remaining intact. Whether the 30mm fits into that category or not, I don't know. But I would guess it does.

In other words, sometimes it's better to have thin armor. Like an AP round sailing through the canvas back of a truck A HEAT weapon, on the other hand, basically always causes significant damage inside provided a) it gets a decent penetration and is not mitigated by other systems (like HALON in Abrams).

Flamingknives,

It could be that the engine is being viewed as smaller than it should. You know how to post a bug report if that turns out to be your finding

Steve

[flamingknives]

Just for giggles, some footage of the MK44 30mm cannon, which is pretty similar in terms of target effect to the RARDEN.

Which would work alot better if I included the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okeKX8HqpIQ

[Alan8325]

I'm no expert on KE rounds, but everything I've read says that depleted uranium penetrators cause plenty of incendiary damage after passing through armor, and it isnt really akin to a hot knife passing through butter, more like a hot knife passing through butter while at the same time catching on fire and fragmenting. I don't know if BMP armor is "hard" enough to cause this to happen, but I figure it should be. It is considered an armored vehicle afterall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

[Ryujin]

I'm no expert on KE rounds, but everything I've read says that depleted uranium penetrators cause plenty of incendiary damage after passing through armor, and it isnt really akin to a hot knife passing through butter, more like a hot knife passing through butter while at the same time catching on fire and fragmenting. I don't know if BMP armor is "hard" enough to cause this to happen, but I figure it should be. It is considered an armored vehicle afterall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

Yeah, DU is pyrophoric, so DU dust in contact with the air causes a very hot flash fire throughout the compartment it hit. Very nasty mix with autoloader propellant bags or crew members.

I don't think DU rounds would really fragment on penetration of the compartment, there would certainly be armor spalling, but the DU rounds are generally self-sharpening and would probably stay in one piece and instead spread DU dust.

The effectiveness is probably strongly related to how much DU dust is thrown into the air on penetration. Really thin armor might not shave off that much.

But really I don't know the details of all this, just passing on what I've heard/read.

[Erwin.Rommel]

My understanding is that the armor of the BMPs is so thin that any significant sized AP round goes straight through and, therefore, causes minimal splintering due to the projectile basically remaining intact. Whether the 30mm fits into that category or not, I don't know. But I would guess it does.

In other words, sometimes it's better to have thin armor. Like an AP round sailing through the canvas back of a truck A HEAT weapon, on the other hand, basically always causes significant damage inside provided a) it gets a decent penetration and is not mitigated by other systems (like HALON in Abrams).

Flamingknives,

It could be that the engine is being viewed as smaller than it should. You know how to post a bug report if that turns out to be your finding

Steve

The strange is that in the game,30mm or 25mm rounds are highly effective againest the BTR60 and BRDM,these two vehicle also has very thin armor,even thinner than the BMP,however, a few rounds can light them up.

In fact I'm more concern about the very good feature in the CMBB/CMAK that the AI gunner will delibrately aim the weak point of the target(for example,the M4 76 try to hit the turret front rather than the upper hull front with the 76APCBC ,will this feature back to the CMX2?probably in Normandy?I surpose this feature is very critical for the WW2 type tank battle.

[flamingknives]

Considering the inherent dispersion of weaponry, rangefinding errors etc, you have to be pretty close before it is worth aiming at weak spots.

[YankeeDog]

...In fact I'm more concern about the very good feature in the CMBB/CMAK that the AI gunner will delibrately aim the weak point of the target(for example,the M4 76 try to hit the turret front rather than the upper hull front with the 76APCBC ,will this feature back to the CMX2?probably in Normandy?I surpose this feature is very critical for the WW2 type tank battle.

Whatever gave you the idea that aiming for weak points is modeled in CMBB/CMAK?? I'm pretty sure it's not.

But in any event, I agree with FK that this is something that generally only applies at knife-fighting ranges. So I don't see it as a critical feature. But to play devil's advocate, there were actually a fair amount of very close-range AFV engagements in Normandy, so in this specific theatre, a weak point aiming might me more important than elsewhere.

[Erwin.Rommel]

Whatever gave you the idea that aiming for weak points is modeled in CMBB/CMAK?? I'm pretty sure it's not.

But in any event, I agree with FK that this is something that generally only applies at knife-fighting ranges. So I don't see it as a critical feature. But to play devil's advocate, there were actually a fair amount of very close-range AFV engagements in Normandy, so in this specific theatre, a weak point aiming might me more important than elsewhere.

As I mention in my previous reply,the condition has been limited to the very close encounter,many time when my M4 76 meets the panther in close range(50-100m),the 76 APCBC been fire to the turret front rather than the upper hull front,even I still remember a battle in which my M4 75 meets a pantherG(early) in very close range(30-50m),and my 75 APCBC accurately hit the lower party of the panther's turret front and Knock out it with penetrating this weak point,and I surpose maybe there is a specific AI in these process