Other Means Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 If it were me, knowing where he's going, I'd move all my armour to take advantage. It looks like he's kept a reserve somewhere - I'd use everything at once and get the firepower edge. Up to you of course - looks fun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 hcrof, Great, clear DAR with a beautiful map! Buildings are a bit jarring visually, but I know it can't be helped. As a former Soviet Threat Analyst, it's fascinating to see the weapons I studied in action, in Europe where my main focus lay for just over eleven years. If this keeps up, I'll have to break out my Na Strazhi Mira y Sotsialisma, a full color Warsaw Pact commemorative book. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 I think mass is key to this battle. Sagger-B's are not accurate so I need to cooncentrate them to be effective. In terms of my attack, as Other Means says, I want to use everything at once especially as Mike seems to be using his tanks piecemeal. It occurs to me that I don't need to hold North hill, I just need to keep Mike off it so I will try to tie down his forces there. Here is a map of the battle as it stands now. It seems I can push Mike off the south hill with little problems. I just don't want to lose men while doing it. Mike definately has the advantage on the north hill but hopefully I can bog him down and destroy him piece by piece. What do people think of infiltrating infantry towards the bridge from the south? The terrain is fields, hedglines and light forest. I would bypass the village but would probably have to go through that platoon of empty BMP's. Do you think that would work to draw in Mikes reserves? John - I do admire Soviet kit! I am still waiting for a 'Fulda Gap' game from BFC 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 The recon squad watched in horror as the turret swung towards them, the commander shouting something into the radio. But the tank only fires one MG round before the commander is riddled by bullets from the west and slumps down, back into the hatch. The turret slews in the direction of fire just as an RPG roars out of the trees and strikes the appliqué armour on the front. The team leader doesn't need any further encouragement and hurls a smoke grenade, shouting at his men to pull back! The man next to him doesn't get up – his helmet has been blown off and what is left of his head is now a bloody mess on the ground. He forces his eyes away and gets up, running to safety. The last thing he sees before disappearing over the ridge is a friendly squad pulling back in good order through the smoke. The tank gunner has recovered and fires a round blind but it hits a burning carrier and no one is hurt. The squad leader throws a smoke grenade while the rest of the squad fire at the tank. ...and retreat under cover of the smoke In the south everyone fires at once, excitedly at first and the rounds go high. The enemy dives for cover but are too slow. Every man is loaded with tracer and they quickly correct their aim, wiping the squad out in seconds. Well, I've got my own back now after wiping out his southern recon squad and taking out another tank commander for only one loss of my own. My troops are doing exactly what I want them to – harrassing the enemy while avoiding losses themselves. Mike has already pulled back his gunnerless BMP, will he do the same with his shot up tanks? I don't mind either way to be honest. If he presses forward he will get shot up badly, if he retreats he loses the hill! He seems to be using his infantry badly right now – even though they are near his tanks, they are poorly coordinated so they have had no effect at suppressing my troops who are able to attack his armour with impunity. Now that my hero recon squad has pulled back out of the fight, I have decided to order them forward. I want to get eyes onto the other side of the hill so I can assess this attack properly. In the south, my plan continues unaltered, I will sneak my RPG and FO teams forward and let them take a look at Mikes setup... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Any news yet? nice DAR your making here! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 The men in the north only have a moment to recover before enemy infantry comes pouring through the trees, their BMPs closely following. The platoon leader can't see very much as his men take pot shots at fleeting shapes but suddenly there is an explosion as a carrier is hit. A shout from the RPG team further up the woodline: We got one! Just before the pair retreats, they let off another shot, hitting a second BMP in its engine compartment. They don't bother to check damage as they turn to run back through the trees... Enemy infantry advance past a their knocked out BMP in the foreground On the other side of the hill, the FO spots 4 men running towards him from the left. He turns and fires, hitting one in the shoulder. The others keep going for a few feet before they realise what is happening and another is cut down. The artillery officer watches in horror as a man raises his rifle, only for it to click... He lets off another burst, cutting down the enemy as he desperately tries to reload and then spots the last man crawling away. That man is shot too. The FO realised he hasn't taken a breath throughout the whole encounter and the intake of breath is like an explosion. That was too close! He checks his ammo – one mag left... As the recon team creeps forward there is a sudden burst of gunfire. They realise in horror they have just walked into a platoon of enemy infantry but it is too late, there are no survivors. Well, Mike is being aggressive again! He obviously wants me off this hill , things are not going well for him though. On one side, his scouts have been stopped by a single FO while on the other side he is rapidly losing armour to RPG fire. I don't know whether that last BMP is KO'd but my carrier has now spotted it and is about to fire. All in all, I think he now has no BMPs left able to fight. This wouldn't be such a problem had he got a significant numbers advantage but infantry wise we are about equal and he has already taken a bit of a mauling. It is a pity my hero recon squad had to get destroyed but they did pick up valuable information in the process. On the other hand, I think I have fallen in love with my FO who will now be known as John McClane No real orders this turn, I will just shuffle my forces around a bit now I know the real direction of his attack. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Wow, that was quick! Got some more where that came from? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 Lol, only one turn a day I'm afraid. Glad you are enjoying it though! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I am. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 This fight on the hill is an interesting one - it is all very short range due to the trees. Imagine a paintball game with AK's! I watched the replay one more time (this game is really encouraging me to take in the details!) and it looks like his platoon HQ squad has taken a lot of casualties, so much so that I think there are no officers left. This is very bad for Mike and I think that his attack is pretty much finished with that blow. Unless he gets reinforcements (Bring 'em on! ) I have won this bloody little skirmish. All in all, I think Mikes attack was somewhat rushed. So, could any forum members have done it better? How would they have conducted an attack like that given the terrain and forces involved? Answers on the back of a postcard please... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 I would have waited for you to attack. The tactical defender generally has a pretty big advantage in CMSF, especially when attacking armor can't stand at range and toss HE without even having to wait for spots. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SD Smack Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 I'm following this quite intently. This is a very cool way to watch a CMSF battle. It has the element of fog due to only seeing it from one side. Very cool indeed! I am continually looking forward to the latest post and pics!! Although I will say that since this is Red v. Red and the forces are mirrored some of the pics are difficult to tell who is who!! But usually the narrative enlightens me! Keep 'em coming! Steve-o 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souldierz Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 In my opinion by the looks of that map and with those tanks and troop layout maybe a hard aggressive strategy is the only way to go.Should always find time to scout before any aggressive move but the opponent wont always give you that luxury and you want to be the first one to give the big blow and make the enemy react to you. Send a small force to make the opponent think your attacking them there, when in reality your using maximum force to attack somewhere else.Having lots of terrain is good for that.Most people will have an attacking force and a defending force.Try to get the opponent to split his armor and forces while you attack with all your armor together using maximum strength against his medium strength.A pack of tanks rushing you is a nightmare and single positioned and scattered tanks wont stand up to them(unless its an Abrams against t-55s then who knows). Holding objectives like hills and buildings might not always be best.Let the enemy concern themselves with that and youl have a good idea where they are going and where they are,from there you can form your attack based on that info.The goal is kill the enemy where they stand.Look for the surrender and not the objective victory. Sneak troops where you suspect ATGM positions are or blast away with the tanks soon as it fires.Seems like its a mechanized battle you got going on so from what i hear speed and surprise mixed with heavy overwhelming firepower will always win the day in mechanized warfare.The one that plants them and keeps them still will eventually lose them unless they got a good ambush set up. Bridges naturally are a choke points and always a threat so recon them well then hurry and get your forces over so the enemy doesn't have time to set up and bog you down. In forest areas if there's many troops they might have the advantage dew to cover and trench's but if its mostly armor your up against then u can use the forest to screen your tanks movements just watch out for the blind spots when turning environmental corners. With all that said it doesn't mean it will all work or that its a better strategy and I'm no 4 star General but that's 1 way i see it.I wouldn't mind trying that map with armor or and with lots of troops.Looks like it would be one hell of a fight. But in all it sounds like you are getting the upper hand in your report so stick with your own plan and what your doing seems like its working unless Mike has a good surprise waiting for you. That's my two sense, Any1 else care to throw in to see if we can make a buck?Always interesting to hear peoples thoughts on tactics. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincere Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Thank you for an enjoyable read. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake_eye Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 This fight on the hill is an interesting one ................ So, could any forum members have done it better? How would they have conducted an attack like that given the terrain and forces involved? Answers on the back of a postcard please... Hi, Hcrof here is my postcard ! it has been ready for a day, but I didn't have time to post it. Nor that I think it will have made a terrific breakthrough in your fight, this reflect what I would have done if I was you. The only drawback is that I don't have a clear OCOKA (the lack of a 30 degree shot of the landscape in front of you) besides your METT-TC . Not seeing clearly the defilades , covers........availables make me guess of my possible and best attack axis and probably wrongly. I would attack on the left side, bypass the hill under smoke barrage cover on either side of my axis then fan out near and on the bridge, establishing there a defence posture. That for the time to get intelligence on the enemy around. Some of the tanks nearer from the hill being bypass could draw fire on it. On the south? I shall have, has you said earlier a force (with an MMG team) going along the river, bypassing the BMP on their right and taking a defence posture in the wood edges facing it and the bridge causeway. On the south hill I would pull back the units lefts and have them take a defence posture an bit farther back with a support of the BMP and squad from the farm. The AT asset will rip to the left in the valley in order to cover the left hill, the center and the right one (I assume the field of fire is good, having no way to check it on a landscape 30° map). Since as well known, all plans turn out to be inappropriate in the heat of the fight, I won't take credit for a possible unconditionnal surrender of your forces. Keep on going with the DAR, I like it most. Cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 Thanks for the replies everyone. For those that are interested, here is a view straight up the middle of the map. Unfortunately, we might have to stop talking about sweeping offensives until I sort out the latest mess I am in. Lets just say I should not have said this: I think that his attack is pretty much finished with that blow. Unless he gets reinforcements (Bring 'em on! ) I have won this bloody little skirmish. It was tempting fate too much! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 As the platoon leader settles down into his position he can see the men moving towards him and takes a few shots. To the right however there seems to be chaos, the BMP is firing but there are screams coming from the infantry. My BMP about to fire at tanks advancing over the ridge while my RPG team is mown down on the left A huge boom of a tank gun sends a shockwave through the trees and a massive explosion rises above the forest. Small arms fire begins and the men can hear enemy officers shouting orders. No time to waste, the right flank has fallen! Everyone fall back! At HILLFARM the Sagger operators have just finished getting ready and they choose their targets – a pair of BMP's in the village. The platoon HQ watches a team fire and guide the missile high, fighting the crosswind, to bring it down onto the engine deck of a carrier partially hidden by houses. Images taken at 20x zoom show just how difficult that shot was! They have no time to admire their shot however. A runner arrives from the hill in a panic, breathlessly telling the details. Enemy tanks and more infantry have broken through! Everyone out! Get in the jeeps! The Lt fails to keep the panic out of his voice and there is sudden movement around the farm as everyone prepares to flee. Ah, overconfidence. The ability to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory I failed to read the signs even though they were right in front of me (recon platoon stumbles into a platoon of the enemy – yes, it is a different platoon, not just the rest of the first) and now a fresh platoon of Mikes infantry is advancing over the hill, supported by tanks. He is not rushing it this time and is using his grunts to find and pin my infantry before letting the big guns do the work. He has caught me completely on the back foot and destroyed both the RPG teams I have on that side of the hill (Why did one team have to stop to throw grenades when I told them to run very quickly in the other direction!? :mad:) and now I am completely exposed. I have ordered a general retreat. Hopefully, Mike won't advance too quickly so I will get 1-2 minutes getting my guys out of there. Now I can't do anything until I counter attack so I will keep my guys in cover while I set it up. Damn, I didn't want to show my hand this early. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
souldierz Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Sounds like hes the one who gained the momentum LOL.Good twist. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhand Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 Still with this, very entertaining. I haven't played red vs red but I think that and blue vs blue make for interesting conflicts. Are you going to post the map/scenario in the repository (sorry if I missed you commenting on that)? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SD Smack Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 That was an impressive Sagger shot!! My guys are real experts at blowing up the dirt 100m away from thier position. If I was controling them I probably wouldn't have taken that shot, but hey it worked! Steve-o 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartokomus Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Thanks so much for doing these; they are incredibly enjoyable to read. Good luck! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 hcrof, Was the SAGGER in question a SAGGER A (MCLOS) or SAGGER B (SACLOS). If the former, I guess your guy was really working hard in the simulator van! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrashb Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I notice an FO way up on the right side - was that deliberate? Seems like he's all alone and vulnerable near the action. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 John - My guys are using Sagger-B's which are MCLOS, so yeah, someones been hard at work in the simulator van! Honestly, given the tiny size of the exposed area of the turret and the fact that he brought the missile down onto the engine deck, I think the only way you could get that shot is with a joystick or a javelin! I notice an FO way up on the right side - was that deliberate? Seems like he's all alone and vulnerable near the action. Well there was a recon squad in front of him and he was supposed to stay hidden. tbh the reason why I didn't move him after the recon squad got splatted was that he was trying to order mortar fire onto the southern hill and needed LOS to avoid hitting my own guys. In the end I canceled the mission in order to save shells for my counter attack but it was too late . At least he wasn't an important FO (thank you v1.21!) Apologies for the slowdown everyone, work and illness have got in the way of gaming time unfortunately. I hope to have my next 2 turns up tomorrow evening. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 hcrof, I thought there was a typo, but it's been so long I had forgotten there were two MCLOS models, not one. SAGGER B's basically a tweaked SAGGER A, but SAGGER C is the SACLOS model. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K11_Malyutka Wish you a speedy recovery and look forward to seeing what happens next! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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