Noticed something remarkable on RAF Regt. and RM Commando Ma Deuces

[Wicky]

Perhaps John, instead of a scatter gun approach with your outlier sniper links etc. is it possible you could direct your scope and maintain your focus in finding out if your original assertion was actually occurring and equipping British front line units in early 2008, thus concurring with CMSF's back story - you have read page 6 of CMSF's manual?

[John Kettler]

gibsonm,

We're apparently talking past each other. What I was saying is that that small, elite units like the RAF Regiment and the Royal Marine Commando Pathfinders have the charge, flexibility and resources to adopt new kit to meet tactical and operational requirements, providing a lever by which to introduce such toys into the line units. The small, elite units, if you would, by reputation and their demonstrated success with this new battle technology provide what we in the States call street cred, paving the way for major defense procurement by the MoD.

Wicky,

Such ingratitude! Must I do everything? As for your last, no. Why? I don't own the game and can't run it on my current rig. Rather, I am simply trying to help my fellow gamers obtain the best possible, most true to reality sim, within the constraints set by BFC. To do this, I am drawing upon my knowledge, expertise, the expertise of others and my ability to do useful research. I believe the issue I raised is significant in the context of CM:SF, as are others I've raised regarding the NATO version of CMx2 and the pending CM:N.

You argued earlier, in essence, that the soft mount and optics issue is too loosey goosey, and I countered with multiple solid evidences that a reasonable baseline could be rapidly established for tweaking standard Ma Deuce military characteristics to reflect combat proven tactical-technical innovations to same by British forces. Rather than acknowledge my contribution, you instead carp about the way I made it.

Regards,

John Kettler

[gibsonm]

gibsonm,

We're apparently talking past each other. What I was saying is that that small, elite units like the RAF Regiment and the Royal Marine Commando Pathfinders have the charge, flexibility and resources to adopt new kit to meet tactical and operational requirements, providing a lever by which to introduce such toys into the line units. The small, elite units, if you would, by reputation and their demonstrated success with this new battle technology provide what we in the States call street cred, paving the way for major defense procurement by the MOD.

Regards,

John Kettler

But just because the RN and RAF have adopted somthing doesn't guarantee that the British Army will. Indeed it may well argue against it.

Indeed to use your logic the USMC would have adopted the AH64, but last time I looked they still used cobra.

[John Kettler]

gibsonm,

There is indeed a perverse streak in many major military circles. See, for example, the Phantom 2,TFX, Rheinmetall 120, Beretta 92 and indeed M16 sagas here, but the U.S. Marines are another matter altogether. That service has long been a funding orphan and is generally low on the defense procurement totem pole. Consequently, it usually gets the new toys late in the game. To see what I mean, look at the Marine M1s in OIF. Not an M1A2 in sight. Before those, the Marines had the last of the active duty 105mm armed M1s, I believe. Frankly, I was surprised they even got M1s!

The Huey Cobra is very nasty, but even the latest AH-1Z is still cheaper than an Apache and loads cheaper than an AH-64D Apache Longbow. There are certain exceptions to the general rule, such as the AV-8B Harrier, the LCAC, SMAW, M32 grenade launcher and other kit specifically needed to support the peculiar combat role of the Marines.

Regards,

John Kettler

[gibsonm]

gibsonm,

There is indeed a perverse streak in many major military circles. See, for example, the Phantom 2,TFX, Rheinmetall 120, Beretta 92 and indeed M16 sagas here, but the U.S. Marines are another matter altogether. That service has long been a funding orphan and is generally low on the defense procurement totem pole. Consequently, it usually gets the new toys late in the game. To see what I mean, look at the Marine M1s in OIF. Not an M1A2 in sight. Before those, the Marines had the last of the active duty 105mm armed M1s, I believe. Frankly, I was surprised they even got M1s!

The Huey Cobra is very nasty, but even the latest AH-1Z is still cheaper than an Apache and loads cheaper than an AH-64D Apache Longbow. There are certain exceptions to the general rule, such as the AV-8B Harrier, the LCAC, SMAW, M32 grenade launcher and other kit specifically needed to support the peculiar combat role of the Marines.

Regards,

John Kettler

Sure,

But its an example of a piece of kit being used when "standarisation" would suggest it shouldn't.

I'd suggest standardisation is "a" criteria, not "the" criteria.

To bring in back closer to the discussion at hand, why do the RM's use Viking instead of say Warrior or 432, because the special capabilities it provides outweighs the logistic benefits of of standardising on one APC / IFV type across the MOD.

Now, I'm not sure what the "standard" weapon sighting system for the 0.50" in the UK MOD is but I suspect arguing that because its in use with units with a "niche" / "boutique" capability doesn't mean its the norm (a bit like the tail wagging the dog).

Even without spreading across all tree services, I suspect every 0.50" in the RN mounted on warships, Fleet Auxiliaries, etc. for example for the close in protection role doesn't have this sight just because the RM commandos have it.

Similarly just because the RAF Regts may use it in their role to protect airfields doesn't necessarily follow that every Bn in the British Army uses it.

Thats a bit like saying that if the SASR settle on a H&K whatever that all existing stocks of SA-80 would be replaced.

Indeed, the argument normally runs the other way. 95% of people need "X" capability so we standardise on "Y" platform. 5% need "Z" capability (2X or X^2) so we will buy them this special piece of gear because their needs are not "normal" and their needs justify the expenditure on the "ZZ" platform.

[John Kettler]

gibsonm,

Certain cases are pretty obvious with regard to benefits, hence, easier to sell. For example, consider the huge leap in military capability when the U.S. went from Springfield 1903 bolt action rifles to the M1 Garand semiautomatic rifle. Believe the Japanese learned that difference the hard way at the Tenaru River on Guadalcanal! Similarly, even the densest pol who's ever fired a Ma Deuce can instantly appreciate the benefits associated with more than doubling the usable reach of that potent weapon. Interestingly, that's pretty much what we see happening on the Pathfinder video set I posted. You can practically hear the fact finding team members chortling for joy after clambering/being wedged into position to fire the soft mounted, optics equipped Ma Deuce on one of the Jackals. Watch for yourself. They're like kids on Christmas Day gleefully unwrapping their presents. No rocket science degree, no dancing dBs, understanding sophisticated networking schemes or exotic metallurgy knowledge required. Just climb on the Jackal and shoot from the new weapon mount. Sells itself! Mind, this doesn't prevent NIH syndrome from turning all manner of good ideas and potentially great weapons into kluges (Army M16 as opposed to Air Force AR-15) or even outright military disasters. See DIVADS Sergeant York, as opposed to the 2S6 Tunguska. The former never worked right and was canceled; the latter is a huge success and has spawned such variants as the Pantera.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Blackcat]

Just to interupt for a moment.

John Kettler said above:

"... small, elite units like the RAF Regiment ..."

The Rock Apes and elite unit? You want to be careful, John, posting that sort of nonsense can seriously damage your credibilty.

[flamingknives]

All HMGs mounted on WMIKs in the British army are fitted with soft mounts and NATO standard optics rails. They can be fitted with SUSAT, ACOG and various electro-optics (II, TI).

I've not seen the HMGs on a Mastiff up-close, but they are not in the game anyway.

[John Kettler]

Blackcat,

The capabilities and highly specialized technical capabilities of the Regiment described here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Regiment

combined with the 29 weeks of training, which matches that of the Paras and exceeds that of the PBI by two weeks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_of_the_British_Army

certainly suggests that this is no ordinary unit, though it may not be deemed elite in British eyes, a matter I don't know much about. Also, the MoD sides with me.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/regiment/

"The RAF Regiment is an elite fighting force, highly trained and ready to serve anywhere in the world."

Was intrigued by the Rock Apes moniker origin and freely admit I, too, thought it had to do with Gib (read a lot of Age of Fighting Sail accounts and novels).

Regards,

John Kettler

[Noltyboy]

There is indeed a perverse streak in many major military circles. See, for example, the Phantom 2,TFX, Rheinmetall 120, Beretta 92 and indeed M16 sagas here, but the U.S. Marines are another matter altogether. That service has long been a funding orphan and is generally low on the defense procurement totem pole.

Regards,

John Kettler

What about those lovely new shiney Ospreys?

Sure,

But its an example of a piece of kit being used when "standarisation" would suggest it shouldn't.

I'd suggest standardisation is "a" criteria, not "the" criteria.

To bring in back closer to the discussion at hand, why do the RM's use Viking instead of say Warrior or 432, because the special capabilities it provides outweighs the logistic benefits of of standardising on one APC / IFV type across the MOD.

Now, I'm not sure what the "standard" weapon sighting system for the 0.50" in the UK MOD is but I suspect arguing that because its in use with units with a "niche" / "boutique" capability doesn't mean its the norm (a bit like the tail wagging the dog).

Even without spreading across all tree services, I suspect every 0.50" in the RN mounted on warships, Fleet Auxiliaries, etc. for example for the close in protection role doesn't have this sight just because the RM commandos have it.

Firstly id say that the reason the RM dont use warrior or 432 is because they are commando inf not armoured or mechanised inf. 1st Battalion The Rifles are light role so dont get them either, when the RM are in "the Stan" they are using the exact same vehicles that the BA uses. The army were opperating Viking with crews from the RAC after the RM went home.

The RM and RAFreg are not specialists with niche capabilities. The equipment they get is the same as any light role battalion in the british army.

I would say that if its in use by the the RM in afghanistan then it will be in use by the army there as well.

The navy dont have .50s on ships at the minute. We have always used 7.62 GPMGs and in the last 10 years if your lucky a Mk 44 minigun in 7.62. The sights for GPMG's are normal iron sights (RN assault rifles have iron sights as well) or Eotech red dot sights for the Miniguns.

Just to interupt for a moment.

John Kettler said above:

"... small, elite units like the RAF Regiment ..."

The Rock Apes and elite unit? You want to be careful, John, posting that sort of nonsense can seriously damage your credibilty.

To quote some army chaps i know.

Barrier goes up... Barrier goes down

[Blackcat]

John,

As you'll know, becuase of the sites you have quoted, the RAF Regiment exists to guard airfields against ground attack. To describe them as an elite fighting force is therfore an abuse of language and an insult to true elite units and the line infantry. The fact that the MOD says they are just goes to show the depths that incompetent department can sink to.

The length of their basic training has nothing to do with thier status, it may just be down to the fact that it takes a long time to teach apes the difference between left and right.

[Noltyboy]

Sorry for double posting like this.

All HMGs mounted on WMIKs in the British army are fitted with soft mounts and NATO standard optics rails. They can be fitted with SUSAT, ACOG and various electro-optics (II, TI).

I've not seen the HMGs on a Mastiff up-close, but they are not in the game anyway.

They use the same as the WMIKs and Jackals.

Blackcat,

The capabilities and highly specialized technical capabilities of the Regiment described here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Regiment

combined with the 29 weeks of training, which matches that of the Paras and exceeds that of the PBI by two weeks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_of_the_British_Army

certainly suggests that this is no ordinary unit, though it may not be deemed elite in British eyes, a matter I don't know much about. Also, the MoD sides with me.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/regiment/

"The RAF Regiment is an elite fighting force, highly trained and ready to serve anywhere in the world."

Was intrigued by the Rock Apes moniker origin and freely admit I, too, thought it had to do with Gib (read a lot of Age of Fighting Sail accounts and novels).

Regards,

John Kettler

Thats the RAF putting spin on things. The RAF Regiments job is force protection. Some do some "special" things with the Special Forces Support Group. But they mainly drive around places like Bastion in land rovers and stand on stag. This can be dangerous and some have lost there lives on ops and i dont deny this. But they are not "elite" except when compared to te rest of the RAF.

[Wicky]

I concur - A few years back 3 fellows I knew joined the RAF Regiment and at the end of their training, while they undoubtedly better fed and fitter they were also ever so slightly unhinged, from watching to many episodes of The Professionals in training, as they couldn't walk near any car especially Ford Capris without rolling over the bonnet and taking up interesting poses with make-believe guns. :eek:

[John Kettler]

Blackcat and Noltyboy,

While your comments on the RAF Regiment are clever and insulting to its members, a look at what must be mastered (see the Wiki) shows the Gunners to be very sharp cookies indeed. If MoD doesn't know which of its units is elite, then shame on it! Please explain the barrier comment, since it's an expression I've not encountered before.

Wicky,

Sounds amusing, but I don't know the show. Nice visuals, though!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Noltyboy]

Blackcat and Noltyboy,

While your comments on the RAF Regiment are clever and insulting to its members, a look at what must be mastered (see the Wiki) shows the Gunners to be very sharp cookies indeed. If MoD doesn't know which of its units is elite, then shame on it! Please explain the barrier comment, since it's an expression I've not encountered before.

Wicky,

Sounds amusing, but I don't know the show. Nice visuals, though!

Regards,

John Kettler

MoD had nothing to do with saying it, it was an RAF site you got that statement from,

Lets have a quick compare.

Royal Marines commando course

* A nine mile (14.5 km) speed march, carrying full fighting order, to be completed in 90 minutes; the pace is thus 10 minutes per mile (6 min/km or 6 mph).

* The Endurance course is a six mile (9.65 km) course across rough moorland and woodland terrain at Woodbury Common near Lympstone, which includes tunnels, pipes, wading pools, and an underwater culvert. The course ends with a four mile (6 km) run back to CTCRM. Followed by a marksmanship test, where the recruit must hit 6 out of 10 shots at a 25m target simulating 200 m. To be completed in 73 minutes (71 minutes for Royal Marine officers). Originally 72 minutes, these times were recently increased by one minute as the route of the course was altered.

* The Tarzan Assault Course. This is an assault course combined with an aerial confidence test. It starts with a death slide (now known as The Commando Slide) and ends with a rope climb up a thirty foot near-vertical wall. It must be completed with full fighting order in 13 minutes, 12 minutes for officers. The Potential Officers Course also includes confidence tests from the Tarzan Assault Course, although not with equipment.

* The 30 miler. This is a 30 mile (48 km) march across upland Dartmoor, wearing full fighting order, and additional safety equipment carried by the recruit in a daysack. It must be completed in eight hours for recruits and seven hours for Royal Marine officers, who must also navigate the route themselves, rather than following a DS (a trained Royal Marine) with the rest of a syndicate and carry their own equipment.

The Parachute Regiment- P Coy

10 miler

A 10-mile (16 km) march conducted as a squad over undulating terrain. Each candidate carries a 35 lb (16 kg) bergen (not including water) and a rifle. The march is currently to be completed in under 1 hour 50 minutes (TA candidates have 2 hours).

[edit] Trainasium

A unique assault course set 60 feet (18 m) above the ground, designed to test a candidate's ability to both overcome fear and follow simple orders at considerable height. This is the only event which is a straight pass or fail; all the other events are scored. The total score required to pass is known only to the P Coy staff.

[edit] Log Race

A team event, in which eight men carry a log (a telegraph pole) weighing 60 kg over 1.9 miles (3.1 km) of undulating terrain. This is supposed to be one of the hardest events.

[edit] 2 Mile March

An individual effort over 2 miles (3.2 km) of undulating terrain, carrying a 35 lb (16 kg) bergen (not including water), rifle, combat jacket, and helmet. Regular candidates have 18 minutes, TA candidates have 19 minutes to complete the run.

[edit] Steeplechase

A 1.8-mile (2.9 km) cross-country run, followed by an assault course. Candidates are under a time limit to complete the event.Time limit is 19 mins after that you lose a point evey 15 sec

[edit] Milling

In this event, each candidate is paired with another of similar size and build, and is given 60 seconds to demonstrate 'controlled physical aggression' in a milling contest - similar to boxing, except neither winning, losing, nor skill are pre-requisites of passing. Candidates are instead scored on their determination, while blocking and dodging result in points deducted. Candidates now wear head protection, and boxing gloves.

[edit] 20 Mile Endurance March

A 20-mile (32 km) squadded march over diverse types of terrain. Candidates carry a 35 lb (16 kg) bergen (not including water) and a rifle. The march must be completed in under four hours and 30 minutes. TA candidates do not participate in this event, due to their reduced opportunity to prepare for the course..

[edit] Stretcher Race

Candidates are divided into teams of 16 men, and have to carry a 175 lb (79 kg) stretcher over a distance of 5 miles (8.0 km), each individual candidate wearing webbing and a helmet. No more than four candidates carry the stretcher at any given time, swapping round at regular intervals so that all candidates carry the stretcher for a certain distance.

RAF Reg

Have a look through that training regime and see how they compare.

RAF reg training

I am not trying to insult anyone, the RAF regt are very good at what they do but they are not the same as the Para's or RM cdo.

[gibsonm]

Blackcat and Noltyboy,

Please explain the barrier comment, since it's an expression I've not encountered before.

Wicky,

Sounds amusing, but I don't know the show. Nice visuals, though!

Regards,

John Kettler

John,

It means you stand there at the front gate to the airfield and as someone approaches you check their papers and then raise the barrier and after they pass you lower it.

While an oversimplification, it gives a guide as to the usual tasking of Airfield Defence guards in both the RAF (and closer to home RAAF) and goes someway to suggest that they aren't "elite" in the same way that SEALs, Delta Force, SASR, RM Commandos, SBS, etc are considered "elite".

You might suggest they are "elite" in that they are very good at the job they do but that's about as far as I'd go.

The "Professionals" was a UK cop show (think Starksy and Hutch for an approx. US equivalent).

Although I would have thought that it would have rated a listing in that "encyclopaedia of group average" or "truth is the last post" resource site otherwise known as Wikipedia that you seem to like to quote.

[Wicky]

The Professionals

[Blackcat]

John kettler,

Insult Rock Apes? I am not sure it is possible.

On an earlier post you said,

"though it may not be deemed elite in British eyes, a matter I don't know much about"

So, please, you might want to think of the posts of myself and others here on this subject as simply trying to open your eyes to the way HM forces work and regard each other.

Complexity of equipment handled or length of training doesn't make a unit an "elite fighting force" (think about some of the signals units).

The Royal Marines and many regiments of the British Army have fighting traditions that go back centuries, traditions that are to this day taken very seriously by their members. (I read the other week of a Grenadier Guardsman in Afghanistan who after receiving a bad wound was pulled back to a place of, relative, safety and pumped for desperately needed nformation about the enemy positions. Having given as full a briefing as he could, he asked pemission to feint from blood loss - "Leave to pass out please, Sergeant").

The RAF don't have traditions, though I have heard that they do have some habits.

Tinkerty-tonk

[Noltyboy]

The RAF don't have traditions, though I have heard that they do have some habits.

Tinkerty-tonk

Most of them bad

[Squatdog]

The legendary Short-Range Desert Group.

[gibsonm]

The RAF don't have traditions, though I have heard that they do have some habits.

Tinkerty-tonk

Well to join the inter service chorus, "traditions" are often born out of adversity, which is a term that I know no one in the RAAF has an understanding of (and am equally sure that applies to the RAF as well).

This is an organisation where maintaining the air con for the pilots is considered a "mission essential task".

But of course their primary role is to train up the next generation of commercial airline pilots.

[GSX]

I think like every force, the Air Force brings something to the party. If the RAF Regt wasnt out there the Army would have to do it. But of course they wouldnt. Inter service rivalry is alive and well and long may it be so. However at the end of the day I think we all appreciate what the individual forces bring to the mix. Im sure the Army would do just great without air support......

[gibsonm]

I'm sure the Army would do just great without air support......

Well we did for a few thousand years actually.

Its only for less than the last hundred that we've had to worry about them.

[John Kettler]

Am throwing in the towel on the elite status or lack thereof regarding the RAF Regiment. Instead, I'd like to return to the primary issue: the real world basis for depicting in CM:SF the enhanced tactical capabilities of units armed with optics equipped, soft mounted Ma Deuces.

I think, and the MoD site shows, the difference between a vanilla Ma Deuce and its enhanced sibling to be considerable, more than enough to justify a tweak. Even if we disregard the previously presented 600 yard/548.8m figure for eyeball shooting MGs with iron sights and take the figures from this useful GunWiki (who knew?) on effective range, 1500 m vs. point target, 1800 m vs. area target (figures from U.S. Army), in the former case, that's still a 25% delta (1500 m vs 2000 m per MoD).

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/FactorsOfEffectiveRange

Thoughts?

Regards,

John Kettler

[gibsonm]

John,

I did type a response to this but I guess the Internet "ate it". If you end up with a duplicate, please ignore.

Not sure where you get your ranges from.

We (in the ADF) use 1 000m as the "effective" range with iron sights as trace burns out between 900 - 1 100m and without that to easily indicate your fall of shot there's not much point.

Certainly if you are lucky enough that the target is in a dusty location or near a lake you can use the kicked up dust or water splash to adjust your shot but in more temperate climes it doesn't help much.

However with a decent AFV sighting system 2 000 to 2 200 is certainly possible as the better optics let you see the effects of fire well beyond the range of trace. In addition a proper mounting (50 odd tonne is better than a tripod) lets you adjust the fire with much more control than "up a bit", "right a bit" with your arms. Also when you have a stoppage you can get back onto the required lay much faster than with a tripod where you pretty much have to start the engagement again.