1.21 Fast and Quick moves

[Ryujin]

Move is sort of a non combat "march". The guys have their weapons hanging from the sling and move casually, the main benefit being move does not tire them at all, even if your going 2km. Though currently all of the movement in safe areas is still done with quick as there is basically no penalty, so move's advantage is pretty useless, short of going a km or so, your guys won't be that tired if they just jog. Your guys are harder to spot and spot better the slower they are going, so yes, there is some advantage to it in that regard. But hunt works better for that anyway.

[jbmtintin]

Agreed, Wiggum (or is it Chief Wiggum?). Either make QUICK more tiring or FAST, well, faster

I think a 'Quick' order more tiring wouldn't be fair: you can run a lot, even with 10kg in the backpack... But maybe a little slower. It seems to me that 'quick' order should be more like a jog, and then not very tiring unless soldiers are running a long way...

[Guardsman]

Does all this really matter? Honestly? Just use the quick order, forget about fast for troops and move on. There are far more important things that the small team called Battlefront need to be concentrating on at the moment than a minor discrepency like this. It really doesn't affect the gameplay, or enjoyment in any way.

Not putting you guys down or nothing, but the game is pretty much as good as it gets (IMO of course) and this is SOOOOOOOOOO minor as to really not lose any sleep over.

I suspect that is why there has been a severe lack of comment from Steve & co, after 3 pages, cos it just ain't worth the skin loss on the fingertips to type anything.

Just my two pennies worth, what do I know.

Darren

[Thomm]

Forget about fast for troops and move on.

Perhaps you should forget about this thread and move on!

Best regards,

Thomm

[Lanzfeld]

I think someone said it before. The difference IRL between a quick jog and an all out sprint is not dramatic in terms of speed difference. Maybe 1/3 faster but quite a bit more on energy consumtion.

[stoex]

To put a little perspective on this in terms of numbers:

Average speed for a marathon winner is about 42,000 / 7680 = 5.5 m/s

Usain Bolt averages about 100 / 9.5 = 10.5 m/s

Granted, grunts are neither marathon winners nor the lightning Bolt, and an average jog is quite a bit slower than a winning marathon run. My opinion is that speed and fatigue are OK in CMSF for game purposes, whether completely realistic or not. Also remember that the same parameters apply to both sides in this case, so there isn't really any advantage either way. Like playing football in the rain, you can't really complain about it because after all, it's raining on the other team as well...

[Secondbrooks]

To put a little perspective on this in terms of numbers:

Average speed for a marathon winner is about 42,000 / 7680 = 5.5 m/s

Usain Bolt averages about 100 / 9.5 = 10.5 m/s

Granted, grunts are neither marathon winners nor the lightning Bolt, and an average jog is quite a bit slower than a winning marathon run. My opinion is that speed and fatigue are OK in CMSF for game purposes, whether completely realistic or not. Also remember that the same parameters apply to both sides in this case, so there isn't really any advantage either way. Like playing football in the rain, you can't really complain about it because after all, it's raining on the other team as well...

I was abou to post this earlier but decided not to. So i'm gonna post it now

I'd think that encumbarance affects more to sprint than jog/run. I dont' have anything to prove it, but that is my understandment. heavier the load, more tiring and slower the sprint is (it's not spring anymore ). Unlike with jogging/running, there one will not suffer as much from heavy weight. Atleast that was my impression with various weights.

But here is one thing and because i've been whining so much lately i decided to not to post it. But now i do post it, however not in whining mind: US grunt probably has weight around 30 kg on him as plain combat gear and water. M203, SAW, AT4 guys has more, i think it's even over 40kg. So he is heavily loaded. Uncon or Syrian grunt has load around 10-15. They technically could sprint (heavily on anaerobic level) much more faster and longer based on my speculations.

On quick (which i see as running on border lines of aerobic-anaerobic level) there might not be such big difference, US troops suffers from 30% penalty on fatigue while Syrian suffers penalty of 10-15%. While they still move practically at same speed: Syrian runs around 220 meters in minute, while US guy bit less than 200 meters in minute. Not much isn't it? If US guy tries run faster (for example 220 meters in minute) he will exhaust much sooner but at that rate they both will exhaust as fast. This if they both would have similar physical fitness level. Kenneth H. Cooper anyone? Yeah i applied bit theory about overweight and it's effect on Cooper's famous test.

Naturally this on track. Wilderness is whole another funky thing

[stoex]

@secondbrooks: I think you are right in principle, however I will add that additional weight to be carried affects the threshold between the aerobic and the anaerobic level quite heavily as well. This means that if you want to run for a relatively long time (staying under the aerobic threshold) while carrying a heavy weight, you will have to run much slower as well. So if the Syrians are less weighted down, their quick and fast speeds should both be higher than coalition forces', or their fatigue thresholds lower at the same speed, assuming identical fitness levels, which are of course another point for argument altogether.

All in all, I think I will stick with my original opinion that for game purposes, CMSF works ok in this respect.

BTW, has anyone here ever actually done a Cooper test? I did one once in soccer training and boy, it was tough. REally, really hard. I almost threw up at the end.

EDIT: Rereading your post, secondbrooks, I find I kind of said the same thing you did. Sorry , didn't mean to do that really, I misunderstood you the first time. Point is I believe, if anything, that Uncons with nothing but their civ clothes, a rifle and a few rounds really ought to move faster than soldiers in full gear. Do they? I don't really even know but I don't think so...Test this, anyone?

[c3k]

I ran tests over a year ago. Encumbrance makes a difference. The laden troops keep up with unladen troops until they tire. The laden troops tire sooner, based on the weight they're carrying. Once tired, they can no longer attain the same FAST or QUICK that unladen troops can; the buttons get blanked out.

FWIW, I think FAST should be faster. I also think MOVE should not be a saunter. MOVE seems to be a totally non-tactical movement option which greatly increases unit vulnerability with no increase in spotting or reaction ability. In fact, I think MOVE is less tactically suitable than the way I've seen many units approach the chow hall. My .02.

I only ever use QUICK with the occasional HUNT and the extremely rare SLOW thrown in only once a fortnight, just to make sure it works.

[stoex]

c3k, don't you ever assault? My feeling is i use about 70% quick, 25% assault, and 5% the rest. With infantry, that is.

[c3k]

Ah, yes, I do ASSAULT. That would be a hair more than HUNT (which should really be "TIRE UNTIL CONTACT THEN FREEZE", but there's already a thread about that). So, in order of use: QUICK, ASSAULT, HUNT, SLOW, all the rest. (I only use MOVE while getting my troops from the barracks to the classroom; no one likes PME.)

Ken

[MikeyD]

I persist in using 'assault' wrong and so use the command less and less - probably less than slow even! I do know better than to do an 'assault' waypoint 50+m away with the supposed covering team out of LOS and unable to perform fire support - but that's what I do, and so my assaults tend to peter out. I'm a bad bad commanding officer.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I now use move in most situation where I used to use quick since quick tires out the troops much more rapidly in 1.21. This makes the time limits on some scenarios way too short if you have to cross great distances without transportation.

[Childress]

Anyone notice a difference among the fitness levels? On QUICK, say between 0 and +1, they seem to peter out at exactly the same distance.

Also, troops using MOVE maintain their preparedness at 'Rested' eternally (apparently). Maybe this gives them a greater advantage than we realize.

[stoex]

Yeah, the grunts do tire more quickly in v1.21...just noticed that again in Night Stalkers.

It does seem to me, though, that to move over longer distances, my pixeltruppen still seem to make better time if I let them go QUICK for a while, let them rest some 30 secs at a waypoint, then Quick some more, etc. Haven't tested it but I'll betcha all a donut that they can cover 400m much faster that way than with MOVE, and be at READY fatigue level when they get there. PLUS stopping at waypoints in between gives 'em even better spotting for the duration of the pause...

[Dietrich]

*** FILMED IN (POSSIBLE) SPOILER-VISION! ***

While playing Paper Tiger's "USMC Second Storm", I sent a squad via Move along the outside of the north bridge, with a Quick order from just inside the bridge parapet. Even before the entire squad had leapt over the parapet and started up the slope toward the entrenched Syrian AGL (which wasn't firing on them, and they weren't taking fire otherwise), they went from Ready to Exhausted, and they remained Exhausted (capable only of Slow movement) for the next 11 minutes.

My guess is that the fairly steep slope outside the bridge parapet (even though they were moving perpendicular to the slope rather than up it) contributed to their losing so much stamina, so that when they had to go Quick those half a dozen meters up the slope and over the parapet in the direction of the enemy trench, it just wore them out.

So my advice to players post v1.21: Be careful what move orders you give your pixeltruppen over various sorts of terrain!