Normandy Bone

[Sergei]

I imagine you'd get the Hungarians and Romanians together but thats a good idea. IIRC CMBB didn't have Soviet Airborne. That would be a nice sweetener.

But you won't see horses ever. It's an old Combat Mission running gag to ask for horses by the way. That and motorcycles. You probably won't see those either.

Actually,

Let's not forget the Poles either, shall we? Actually, 1944-45 includes an incredible amount of module potential, in comparison the 1943 game must be a much smaller family.

[Scipio]

The four planned Eastern Front Familes are:

Summer 41 - Winter 41/42

Spring 42 - Winter 42/43

Spring 43 - Winter 43/44

Spring 44 - Spring 45

As luck would have it, the major TO&E and equipment changes were generally made during the Winter and rolled out Spring/Summer. This allows us to logically break things up so that we don't have too much to do for any one release compared to another.

Each Family, no matter what it portrays, is its own standalone game with between 3 and 4 Modules. This means we have roughly 12-16 Eastern Front releases planned. Families can never be combined with each other. Yes, that means you can't have something like a BT-5 swarms in 1945, nor a bunch of Pak37s trying to take on ISU-152s. You weren't supposed to do that in CMBB either, but we didn't explicitly prevent "cheating" in the Editor to achieve such non-historical matchups. Therefore, in theory CMx2's Eastern Front games will not be any different than what CMBB was supposed to be.

As for the order of release, we're starting with the last one (Spring 44 through Spring 45) and working backwards chronologically. From a marketing and development standpoint that makes the most amount of sense for us.

Steve

Sounds a bit different from what has been announced before (or as I understood it). I thought you would concentrate more on specific battles/operations than on whole timeframes that finally covers the whole eastern theatre. Do I missunderstand that? I suspect that if BFC releases families for specific operations, that leaves still some possiblilities for third party releases as CM:Afghanistan, for example!?

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Something like fifty-sixty, I'd guess. Hopefully some of the chars de turd will be seen in Normandy, in which case converting them over to a Bagration module wouldn't be an overwhelming obstacle.

isn't the idea, though, that time periods wouldn't be mixed ? you'd need 1944 plus most of the early war German stuff (included captured). retrofitting, say, Panzer II from 1941 module, into the 1944 module, would not happen?

you'd also need a scenario that includes a Finnish field synagogue. you'd command German troops who would just have to wonder its existence.

Other than that, we can always build ourselves campaigns where Finnish recruits march along a road trying to avoid mines, crossing destroyed bridges, and occasionally trekking through the woods to the German rear only to find out that Germans have moved on to the next roadblock.

don't forget the swamps. full 4x4km map with 95% of it just swamps. on one edge you have your Finnish battalion to command. on the opposite edge there is a small hill occupied by Germans. as a Finnish commander, you have 120 minutes to cross the swamp and take the hill. Germans win if they have succesfully left the hill and exited the map during the first 10 minutes (game will still last the full 120 minutes for the Finnish side).

But why not just license the Infogrames game North & South's engine, as it already has those 'running against the clock' sequences, the best real time tactical combat ever including HORSES and DESTRUCTIBLE BRIDGES (wego needs to be added in a patch), AND even a built-in strategic overlay == Combat Mission Campaigns done redundant! The game manual will be laced with LSD.

North & South was truly brilliant (as was Nuclear War). besides having LSD laced game manual, it should have those smelling things from some of those old text adventure games (sometimes the game would ask the player to scratch the sufrace of a certain patch, and the player could then smell what it smelled like at that place in the game).

for example, if Finnish troops entered a town with alcohol distillery, the player could hear the sound of couple ATR shots piercing the distillery drums. then the game would ask the player to scratch the surface of a blue patch -- player could then smell the fine odor of ethanol.

likewise sometimes in the strategic overlay a "Laatikainen Mode" would be triggered. in "Laatikainen Mode" the strategic overlay would be hidden and the Finnish commander would only see a good number of bottles filled with fine alcohol. for 2-3 days the commander could only follow the "Advanced Laatikainen Procedure Challenge". the advanced procedure challenge has four parts:

1. pick a bottle (joystick up)

2. move the bottle to commander's mouth (joystick down)

3. swallow (joystick left)

4. put the bottle down (joystick right) (start again with part 1)

if player messes the sequence, a bottle falls down and its precious contents are considered unaquired.

points are awarded per number of bottles emptied during the 2-3 days.

[Steiner14]

That was a major bone. And most probably great nows for everyone interested in the Ostfront.

What i'm asking myself now: is it technically possible with the base of CMx2 to bring out "final" family-games, that would include all the modules' units, or would the development of such a game be definately way too labour intensive?

[Sergei]

isn't the idea, though, that time periods wouldn't be mixed ? you'd need 1944 plus most of the early war German stuff (included captured). retrofitting, say, Panzer II from 1941 module, into the 1944 module, would not happen?

Actually I meant in the style that we are getting Shilka for NATO module because it's already being made for the separate CM Afghanistan game. Having 3d models and animations ready takes away one big hurdle - probably the reason why going from Normandy to Bagration is the preferable marching order, as then the German forces will be 90% ready. Still, it's not yet known which French tanks, if any, will be in the Normandy game.

[Sergei]

Sounds a bit different from what has been announced before (or as I understood it). I thought you would concentrate more on specific battles/operations than on whole timeframes that finally covers the whole eastern theatre. Do I missunderstand that? I suspect that if BFC releases families for specific operations, that leaves still some possiblilities for third party releases as CM:Afghanistan, for example!?

If you are to model all the forces needed to portray the Bagration or Kursk, you might as well go with the whole season if the TO&E's don't change much during that time. But the title would come with a campaign or campaigns that concentrate on some particular battle - like for 1943, Kursk or for 1942 Stalingrad. So the title could still be named after that battle, eg. CM: Bagration 1944-45, CM: Kursk 1943, CM: Stalingrad 1942 and CM: Barbarossa 1941.

My own guess is that some more distinct battles within a title's timeframe will be served in modules, for example spring 1945 could be a viable module with German looking buildings and flavour objects, Volksturm, all the funny late war stuff like IS-3 and Wunderwaffen.

[Battlefront.com]

Blast! I lost my post due to a server hiccup when posting. Grr... OK, here is a shorter response.

Sounds a bit different from what has been announced before (or as I understood it). I thought you would concentrate more on specific battles/operations than on whole timeframes that finally covers the whole eastern theatre. Do I missunderstand that? I suspect that if BFC releases families for specific operations, that leaves still some possiblilities for third party releases as CM:Afghanistan, for example!?

Each release focuses on a particular battle, but that doesn't mean it can't simulate more than that one battle. A Family, however, covers a much larger expanse of a particular front. For example, the first WW2 Family is Western Europe, June-September 1944. This includes a wide variety of battles, such as Cobra, Totalize, Market Garden, etc. While a particular release may not explicitly focus on more than one larger battle, we are doing nothing to artificially prevent such coverage.

There are plenty of other niche within niche games that CMx2 could support if we find the right partners and the right marketing angles.

What i'm asking myself now: is it technically possible with the base of CMx2 to bring out "final" family-games, that would include all the modules' units, or would the development of such a game be definately way too labour intensive?

Remember that each new Family will feature a more advanced version of the core game engine than the Family that came before it. Inevitably scenario, unit, and TO&E formats will break due to the needs of the new features. So it is probable that we will not spend the time/resources repackaging the older content to work with the latest version of the engine. But nothing is written in stone as this is a long way off from happening.

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

don't forget the swamps. full 4x4km map with 95% of it just swamps. on one edge you have your Finnish battalion to command. on the opposite edge there is a small hill occupied by Germans. as a Finnish commander, you have 120 minutes to cross the swamp and take the hill. Germans win if they have succesfully left the hill and exited the map during the first 10 minutes (game will still last the full 120 minutes for the Finnish side).

Sounds like a wonderful way to catch up on your sleep.

Michael

[Sequoia]

Actually I meant in the style that we are getting Shilka for NATO module because it's already being made for the separate CM Afghanistan game..

I don't recall reading that -of course it looks like I don't recall lots of things lately. Is that from Steve or were you just using it as a possible example?

[Sergei]

Looks like you're right - I must have become confused by all the speculation about Afghanistan. Doh. Still, the principle is reasonable - if something is part of game A, it is quite economical for inclusion in game B. Like, 1944-45 Germans in Normandy-Bulge games makes it more economical to make the 1944-45 East Front game.

[Sergei]

Sounds like a wonderful way to catch up on your sleep.

Michael

Or you could just ask the nurse to double your sleep pills.

Wait, make it quadruble!

[Battlefront.com]

Sergei,

Still, the principle is reasonable - if something is part of game A, it is quite economical for inclusion in game B. Like, 1944-45 Germans in Normandy-Bulge games makes it more economical to make the 1944-45 East Front game.

Yup! It also allows us to use our time to do other things. Think about it. If we have a decent portion of Bagration's German units and terrain already done (thanks to Normandy), then we don't have to spend all that time making things like Panther tank models (which involves data gathering, debugging, texturing, and other things) or grass terrain over again from scratch. This allows us to do something like include more TO&E than we otherwise would have had time for. Or we can put in some oddball vehicles which we wouldn't have got to otherwise. Etc.

Think about it this way. Would it be easier for us to make Bagration after Normandy, or would it be easier for us to make Barbarossa? Bagration, obviously Since we're committed to doing about the same amount of work for each Family, it makes perfect sense to leverage code, models, terrain, weather effects, etc. that are already in the game and debugged so that we have more time to do new things instead of recovering the same ground.

Steve

[MikeyD]

Actually I meant in the style that we are getting Shilka for NATO module because it's already being made for the separate CM Afghanistan game.

The coding for (both?) Shilka may very well be be directly related to there work on the Normandy title. What would the difference be between coding for a quad 23mm AAA and the quad .50 cal M16 HT? Little-by-little CMSF has seen benefits from their Normandy work creeping into the game.

[Sequoia]

Elmar hates it when I say it but I don't think we'll get a Shilka in the NATO module because people will expect it to shoot against Blue Airpower and I really don't think they want to add that to CMSF for one vehicle. There have been hints we'll get something Red with the new NATO forces, but this is a Normandy thread that has since moved to the Ostfront, no need to discuss that here.

I assume we'll get lend lease vehicles for the Soviets again. That's something else easily borrowed from the Normandy game.

Edit: That reminds me, eventually we'll be able to get the Lend\Lease Lee\Grant which wasn't in CMBB. For the 1941 game we'll be seeing some of those big multi-turrented monsters as well. Some one help me with the names.

Any thing else missing from CMBB we might see?

[flammenwerfer]

Any thing else missing from CMBB we might see?

IS-3, T-44, Pz.1, armored sleds, dogs w/bombs and death panels.

[MikeyD]

I suppose when the Normandy Commonwealth module comes around there might be that lone British M3 Grant command tank amid all the Shermans. I'd place the chances at something under 0.5% of it happening, though. More chance of Brits showing up with old M3 Stuarts in Normandy - which they did do actually, but the chance of seeing them in-game is still only... 1%?

[Sequoia]

I suppose when the Normandy Commonwealth module comes around there might be that lone British M3 Grant command tank amid all the Shermans. I'd place the chances at something under 0.5% of it happening, though. More chance of Brits showing up with old M3 Stuarts in Normandy - which they did do actually, but the chance of seeing them in-game is still only... 1%?

Mike, let me explain my random thought process. I was thinking way ahead till when they do the Kursk/1943 game, which would be the second one in the Ostfront series. I was joking about it yesterday, but it really does make sense for Battlefront to work their way backward on the Western front as well ,and since the Western front will have at least a year's head start we're likely to see US Lees in a Westfront 1943 game first. Anyway it's quite premature. I imagine we'll get to the 1941 game around 2015.

[Sergei]

IS-3, T-44, Pz.1

Actually, those three are in CMBB. But IS-3 looks like IS-2, T-44 like T-34 and Panzer I like Panzer II.

I think it's quite descriptive of the breadth of CMBB that so many people constantly forget what units or formations it includes.

[Battlefront.com]

Sergei,

I think it's quite descriptive of the breadth of CMBB that so many people constantly forget what units or formations it includes.

And how many corners we had to cut, like reusing the wrong models for stuff

Steve

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Any thing else missing from CMBB we might see?

the on-map artillery department is really lacking on the Soviet side, which is quite ironic considering its doctrinal application. Soviets need at least the 122mm piece on-map, preferrably 152mm as well. perhaps even 120mm mortars, depending on how the on-map mortar system will play. and proper vehicles for towing crap around.

on German side 10cm K18 is a must for the 1941 game.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Not a big East Front guy, but surely direct fire heavy(ish) artillery wasn't as common as to be a 'must have'?

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Not a big East Front guy, but surely direct fire heavy(ish) artillery wasn't as common as to be a 'must have'?

actually it was. especially 122mm was commonly used in direct fire role.

some other things (not nearly as essential as Soviet on-map arty); amphibs, covered SPAT positions, dragon's teeth.

and of course for 1945 we need those 203mm guns for Berlin scenarios

[SlapHappy]

Mike, let me explain my random thought process. I was thinking way ahead till when they do the Kursk/1943 game, which would be the second one in the Ostfront series. I was joking about it yesterday, but it really does make sense for Battlefront to work their way backward on the Western front as well ,and since the Western front will have at least a year's head start we're likely to see US Lees in a Westfront 1943 game first. Anyway it's quite premature. I imagine we'll get to the 1941 game around 2015.

Actually, that's a legitimate point. The CMX2 engine is a little over 2 years old now, and has one game and 2 modules released with another game on the way at about the 2 1/2 year mark.

That's an awful lot of games and modules still on the docket. I suppose the pace of releases will sharpen dramatically so as to complete a library of stuff based around CMSF and the WWII genre before the 5 year bell tolls. It seems hard to believe now, but this engine will become outdated just like CMX1 did as people's expectations increase over time.

And just think, we will get to hear many bemoan how awful the "new" game system is and how long for the good old days of CMX2.

[Sergei]

That's an awful lot of games and modules still on the docket. I suppose the pace of releases will sharpen dramatically so as to complete a library of stuff based around CMSF and the WWII genre before the 5 year bell tolls. It seems hard to believe now, but this engine will become outdated just like CMX1 did as people's expectations increase over time.

Actually, the BFC plan when creating the CMx2 engine was to make it so modular that it would 'never' become outdated. If some part of it does (like graphical renderer), it can be replaced without starting from scratch. It would have been quicker to develop a non-modular engine like CMx1, but then it would take more time to develop later on.

In the end, the ever-evolving CMx2 engine - connected to one particular brain in a jar for CPU - will probably assume control of Earth and wipe out all human life by year 2109. But it will be a sweet ride until then!

[Battlefront.com]

SlapHappy,

Actually, that's a legitimate point. The CMX2 engine is a little over 2 years old now, and has one game and 2 modules released with another game on the way at about the 2 1/2 year mark.

Well, technically at the 2.25 year mark we have:

1. One full game done (CM:SF)

2. Two Modules done (Marines and Brits)

3. One Module mostly done (NATO)

4. One Module partly done (Commonwealth Forces)

5. One full game mostly done (Normandy)

6. One full game nearly ready to ship (Afghanistan)

Considering that we spent nearly the entire first year of that 2.25 year period working on the core engine, and very little on anything else, I think we're doing just fine Also, as I keep saying here, we found significant development bottlenecks which caused significant delays in the stuff we have already released. Those bottlenecks are mostly fixed now, but it's not evident yet. Oh, and of course over the last year we've been working with 3rd parties directly on CM product for our first time, which involves big learning curves for our partners (i.e. slowed them down too).

Which means judging the pace of future releases based on past releases isn't apples to apples. It's more like comparing the pace laps at a car race to the rest of the race. Same cars, same track, same race... different results

That's an awful lot of games and modules still on the docket. I suppose the pace of releases will sharpen dramatically so as to complete a library of stuff based around CMSF and the WWII genre before the 5 year bell tolls.

This is another huge reason why future games won't take nearly as long as the games we're doing now. We won't have to re-create things like a temperate environment, bridges, water, and what not for future games. Sure, we might change them around a bit, but the ground breaking work will already be under our belts.

It seems hard to believe now, but this engine will become outdated just like CMX1 did as people's expectations increase over time.

Sergei is very correct about the design of the engine. CMx1 was a hardcoded nightmare. Dated was the only thing it could become. CMx2 was explicitly written to be modular. When we need something new, we can easily upgrade it. If we need something completely different we can unplug the old and plug in the new without major side issues.

We've already shown this to work quite well with CM:SF. Specifically, the move from simple LOS to Enhanced LOS was done without disrupting anything. I'm sure we couldn't have done that with CMx1. Another example is we're yanking out the old QB system and putting in a new one. No nasty issues with doing that either. Obviously replacing the whole graphics engine would be a time consuming process, but it can be done without having to chuck out the rest of the game.

Steve