Calvin Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 OK, ordered the direct download of the British module and decided to also get the DVD as with the Marine's Module, I received both the DVD AND a printed out copy of the manual. So... paid extra again for the brits and I get a Priority Mail envelope with a DVD in it and a 1 page invoice reminding me that yes, I ordered it. I think the extra 10 bucks might at least rate a print out of the apparently solely available in PDF Brit Forces manual. No, not a big rip but I'm grousing anyway. Also, the Marine's module came in this cool plastic box. I love that box. Calvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I love the tiny box that the Brits module came in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 From this thread: We've been over this several times before on this forum, but why not repeat it again: the $20 you're paying (roughly EUR 14) is for both shipping (the actual postage) as well as handling. Handling includes everything from storing the product to picking it once your order comes in to preparing it for shipment to actually packaging it and sending it out). EUR 14 is barely covering the actual cost we have. The actualy postage usually ranges from EUR 3 to EUR 6, and the rest is made up of all the other things the fulfillment house is doing. We'd love to be able to send you stuff for less, or for free, but the only way to do this would be to raise our prices accordingly, thereby effectively kind of masking the cost (but it's still there; just like so many other things, "free" to the customer does not mean it actually doesn't cost anything, it only means that someone else is paying for it). EUR 14 is by no means out of the ordinary for S&H in Europe. There are big mail-order companies who do it for less, or tiny one-man operations that send out one package a week and do not actually have any significant "handling", but there are also many others who charge a similar amount (and more) for S&H. The way we have it set up, it's your choice as customer to purchase mail delivery or not. It makes sense to have a backup copy once your download runs out for example, or to get a printed manual. If you feel it doesn't make sense for you, don't order the mail delivery. As for packaged goods... our approach has been pretty consistant, and also self-explanatory I think. Prime releases usually are getting "the full enchilada" with printed manual etc. Expansions, add-ons and modules usually are not. For one, there is less to print (the British Forces manual is fairly small compared to the main manual for the base game), but the main point is: add-ons usually cost less. Yet our cost to produce hard-goods is pretty much the same. Marines was a major exception to the rule because of the circumstances. NATO will be, most likely, just like British Forces. Afghanistan, which is NOT a module, will be getting the enchilada again. Normandy of course as well. For Histwar we even have a limited deluxe edition in the works. And so forth. Anyway, I am sorry if the image and the text were misleading to some. You will see this kind of "box-shot" for pretty much all our releases going forward, regardless of the actual package. But I will make sure to be more clear about what the hardgoods include in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebloggs Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 This module should have been a download only as once you have burned it onto a cd you have the exact same thing that Battlefront charged you $30 extra for. Or even worse $45 if you only bought the hard goods without the download. People have a right to be disapointed and by simply quoting what Moon has said in another thread does not make it ok to not feel disapointed in the quality of the goods. Too many forum police here who who like to jump to the defence of BF. There are faults on both sides with the way this was marketed, advertised and understood. If the image had shown only a cd in a jewel case I wonder how may poeople who have the facility to burn cd's would have bought a copy of the hard goods? I would not. Yes I know it was stated in the small print but having bought other games and been very happy I did not expect this poor offering for what I paid. At least if it was bought with the Marines Module it is not too bad a hit. $55 total (or $45) is a lot of money for a game and I, and obviously others, expected more. As far as the $20 shipping charge goes, how about the next time you offer a cd only just buying first class stamps and posting it. "No plan survives contact with the next turn button" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Grey Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Okay, I can udnerstand the info floating around here can sometimes be a bit misleading, but we all should view as a long-term investment: the more money we give BFC, the more (and better!) games they can continue to give us. What's the use of our favorite games developer dlivering a The-whole-shebang-with-eveything-you-can-think-of-plus-a-free-ticket-to-Hawaii game realease and stating afterwards they're going out of business because the last two releases simply were too expensive? It's not working like that in the games industry and never has - and a lot of companies have gone out of business exactly because of that: trying to deliver more than they were able to cope with or to pay for in production costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 People have a right to be disapointed and by simply quoting what Moon has said in another thread does not make it ok to not feel disapointed in the quality of the goods. Too many forum police here who who like to jump to the defence of BF. There are faults on both sides with the way this was marketed, advertised and understood. If the image had shown only a cd in a jewel case I wonder how may poeople who have the facility to burn cd's would have bought a copy of the hard goods? I would not. Good lord, all I did was post a quote from BFs(Moon) response to this very complaint, link included as well. I assumed you wanted to see a response from BF, but looks like you just wanna blow hot air. Then the forum police comment, come on man, give it a rest. If you even bothered to read the other thread you'd see I'm in total agreement about this. Although it's not as big of a deal for me since I bought the mod bundle. Anyways, way to bark up the wrong tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 This module should have been a download only as once you have burned it onto a cd you have the exact same thing that Battlefront charged you $30 extra for. We don't charge anyone for anything unless they choose to order it, kowing full well what it will cost. And it's not $30 but $10 extra for the "download and mail" option. The shipping and handling is a variable cost from $10 to $20 depending on where you want it delivered to, and we're merely passing our cost for shipping and handling on to the customer. Or even worse $45 if you only bought the hard goods without the download. That's $25 plus S&H. As far as the $20 shipping charge goes, how about the next time you offer a cd only just buying first class stamps and posting it. How about you do shipping for our next release? I would like to see you buy first class stamps and posting a couple thousand units on release day, and hundreds of units per day afterwards, not to mention handling the storage, inventory counts and customer support regarding fulfillment year round. BTW, first class stamps won't get you far because it's $20 in Europe only (EUR 14), and $10 in the US. And another BTW: our cost for european shipping hasn't increased at all in the past 5 years or so, the only thing that has changed is the USD-EUR exchange rate. European customers pay nearly the exact same amount as 5 years ago for shipping. Our reasonsing for the hardgoods choice has been copied above in this thread, so I won't go into that any more. I already apologized for creating misleading information if that's what caused it. And while everyone has a right to complain and also to voice their disappointment if they expected something else, I find it interesting that there were no threads after our Marines release about how great the hardgoods were. At least I don't recall any. In a market where companies are stopping to offer hardgoods at all you guys should be patting us on the back for keeping them, and for sticking to our policy for (most) newly released games of offering great printed boxed product. Next time you buy a game, choose one of them. Because at the moment what's happening is that more and more people are choosing download only, making it basically impossible to continue doing full-blown hardgoods for non-full price releases without raising prices across the board. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabal23 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Expectation sure can be a bi&%tch. I guess everyone sort of expected it since they did it for the last two installments. I also made a comment about the shoddiness of my package. the jewel case was cracked and there were fingerprints all on the disc. Not what I expect from BF. So am I to chalk that up to the fact that they are a small operation? If you are in business, it is your job to give the best service possible or your demand might not be so high for your product as you would want. It is my observation that BF is moving away from cases for their games. I find this unfortunate because many people don't want to download a cover, put it in a case and refer to a PDF manual. Not everyone wants their product like that and why would any of us have suspected it would be different than the last two purchases? I think it is a sad excuse all the locals keep making for BF. I have been here for years and never felt like the quality of my hardcopy was not worth the investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 It is my observation that BF is moving away from cases for their games. That observation is wrong, as mentioned above. I also made a comment about the shoddiness of my package. the jewel case was cracked and there were fingerprints all on the disc. A cracked disc is something else entirely than what is discussed here. It *is* inexcusable, and already had a word with the new production facility we had used for British Forces about the quality of the cases used (and in fact, why they didn't use slim cases as they were supposed to, but regular jewel cases). This problem occurred in the US only (European customers got a slim case as they should), and it has already been solved. Any product shipped out from now on (that isn't in a DVD box, like most are) will be in slim case which does not crack as easily. Anyway, we will make it much more clear in the future what to expect from a hardgoods package. As mentioned before, for full-price product it is usualy a fully printed manual and DVD box. For a $25 expansion however it usually is not. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkjsmith Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 hi i live i the UK and have not yet recieved my CD, but since like most people, i was expecting more than i am going to get, i am not to bothered. The only reason i payed for the hardgoods was for the manual, as i use them in game. i know i could print it out but its just not the same. Even thought i am disapointed, BFC has provided me with thousands of hours of entertainment for a very good price and for this i am greatfull. so if i have paid more than i would have for one game it is not so bad. BFC, would it be at all possible to for you to make avalible for purchase a pack of normaly printed manual, cd cover and box sleave ? as in marines module. we can buy our own cd box. i would be willing to pay for this ! i don't know if anyone else would be interested ? BFC i have read most of the threads related to this problem and i must say i am a bit dissapointed in your responce, as i get the impression that you have just dug your heals in and are just saying not our fault and not our problem. I find this counter productive as if it was only one person complaining, then it could just be that one person, but alot of people are very unhappy about this. If we could get a one off print package for british for purchase and increase the price of future hardcopies, and make them to Marines module standard. It could be a solution. thanks paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 No need to call people forum police. We/they have right to express their satisfaction as people have the right to express disatisfaction. And gotta think, if no printed manual and aminities is the worst thing about the module, then BFC is still light years ahead of the curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 It is very important to keep in mind that we offer the hardgoods option for those who want it, not because we make money off of it. Believe me, nothing would make our lives easier than to have zero physical product to make, inventory, and ship. But some people can not do a download only option or simply prefer not to for whatever reason. And it is absolute none of our business what that person's reason is for going with a hardgoods option. However... pkjsmith, BFC, would it be at all possible to for you to make avalible for purchase a pack of normaly printed manual, cd cover and box sleave ? as in marines module. we can buy our own cd box. i would be willing to pay for this ! i don't know if anyone else would be interested ? The problem is to get a good price on a manual, even a small one, printers require a certain minimum print run. Now that we offer direct download the number of people opting for a physical manual, even when offered, is getting smaller and smaller each year. The number is often already too small to get decent pricing and/or to shield us from buying inventory and storing it for years (we still have CMBO manuals printed in 2000 even though we've chucked cartons full over the years). As the costs go up the interest in the option drops, which then makes the option less viable for us without charging additional money to the customer, which in turn reduces the number of people interested, which... well, you get the point At some point we hit a level where the costs for the product itself bottom out (shipping and labor continue to climb). With the British Module we were afraid that that bottomed out price would be too high for most people to contemplate. And when I read a thread like this that opinion is reinforced quite a bit. Does that mean we'll never offer a printed manual option for Modules? No, but we definitely are in a bit of a pickle over this where we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. We definitely will consider which way we want to be damned when we get to the next Module. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 BFC, would it be at all possible to for you to make avalible for purchase a pack of normaly printed manual, cd cover and box sleave ? as in marines module. we can buy our own cd box. i would be willing to pay for this ! i don't know if anyone else would be interested ? The cd box is by far the cheapest part of what you mentioned. The printed materials are where the cost is. BFC i have read most of the threads related to this problem and i must say i am a bit dissapointed in your responce, as i get the impression that you have just dug your heals in and are just saying not our fault and not our problem. I find this counter productive as if it was only one person complaining, then it could just be that one person, but alot of people are very unhappy about this. Not "a lot", just a handful of people on this forum. Compared to the amount of units shipped out and received to date, that's not much, especially since complaining to get more for less is easy to do. Notice also that there are people who do not think that there is a problem at all. Yet I am still addressing it actively, so I don't know why your impression is that we think it's not our problem. I am trying to explain why things are the way there are and why some people's expectations are way off base. If we could get a one off print package for british for purchase and increase the price of future hardcopies, and make them to Marines module standard. It could be a solution. Sure it would be. Unless of course you're the only one who wants to buy a more expensive hardcopy. In that case we would need to charge you $4000 or $5000 for it because that's what it costs us minimum to produce them. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrocles Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Okay, I can udnerstand the info floating around here can sometimes be a bit misleading, but we all should view as a long-term investment: the more money we give BFC, the more (and better!) games they can continue to give us. What's the use of our favorite games developer dlivering a The-whole-shebang-with-eveything-you-can-think-of-plus-a-free-ticket-to-Hawaii game realease and stating afterwards they're going out of business because the last two releases simply were too expensive? It's not working like that in the games industry and never has - and a lot of companies have gone out of business exactly because of that: trying to deliver more than they were able to cope with or to pay for in production costs. good point. I would have no problem with this if so stated by BFC up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I don't work in the printing business. And I'm sure most of you on this forum do not either. But I find it hard to believe you are not aware that printing is a VOLUME business. 20 copies will never be as cheap as 200 copies or 2000 copies BY UNIT. What Steve and Martin are trying to say is that the volume of printable items needed makes the PER UNIT price unwieldy given the printers EXPECTATIONS. You see, he's in business to make money, too. And if BFC subsidizes this by charging a slight overhead on all purchases, including Download Only customers, guess who will be complaining next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebloggs Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 The whole point is that the image and advert is showing one thing but what you get is something different. It has been admitted by Moon that what you will receive will need to be more clear in the future. Still consider this to be bordering on false advertising. Do not show an image of goods then send something different. If I saw an advert for a car and bought that car on the way it was advertised I would expect to receive that car, not a tractor. I also was not wanting more for less. But having been more than happy with the previous two products in the series I failed and still fail, to see the image of a cd only in a jewel case. If I had seen this then I would expect to receive only a cd in a jewel case. As I stated I would not have bought it if I had been fully aware and saved $30. I only bought the hard goods based on the image given and have previously been willing to pay the shipping charges for a decent quality DVD case, printed cover and manual. I could have accepted just the DVD case and printed cover. None of us here are aware of how you do your business with printers but the Marines module was a quality hard goods product and I had no reason to expect any less with the British module based on your advert. There certainly is a so what, hard luck attitude floating around and just because there are only a few people, so far, unhappy that makes it ok for us to be disapointed. If you really don't consider the unhappy people as valued customers then say so. $25 hard goods + S&H ($20)= $45 Don't understand your point Moon as I didn't make a false statement. Mr A buys download and burns copy to cd Mr B buys download and hardgoods Mr A & Mr B have exactly the same thing but Mr B has paid $30 more. Nothing special warrants the extra $30. Wasn't clear enough. And to the person who thinks I am just here to blow hot air; it is my hard earned money that I spent on an item that I could have made myself. When you start giving me money to spend then come here and tell me I don't have a right to complain about being mislead and disapointed. "No plan survives contact with the next turn button" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 To be honest, I agree with joebloggs and can see why there are many dissappointed people out there. I hope that BFC has learned from this and produce high quality hard goods in the future for those who want the 'collectors edition' while continuing to offer the current download service which works very well for those on a budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Delta Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 haha buncha crybabies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Delta Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Dear Battlefront, Please charge me $50 for the next module (which you could have easily done) instead of the extremely reasonable price of $25 so I can have a 5 page manual explaining the new features (that have already been rehashed over and over) and a box with a picture on it that will collect dust on my bookshelf. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 What's that old saying, you're not selling the steak, you're selling the 'sizzle'? The CD option was obviously meant for people struggling with a slow modem speed. But puchasers need to feel they're getting something extra-special. That's why stores can sell $5 T-shirts for $30. The cachet of a fancy big-name logo hidden on the inside collar makes it worth the extra expense. In reality, they simply bought a T-shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabal23 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I am starting to think that most people posting here need to move on because as usual, people are not helping the convo. Actually we have moved on to people being jerks and they must be in BF's good graces because I see people get slammed by some beta tester, or admin, for being jerks and taking convo's off base in other posts but not here for some reason. OK BF made their point. Now everyone who doesn't have something positive to say needs to step off. It is the same spiel over and over ad nauseum. Every time a good point gets brought up, it is always some "small group" of people complaining as stated once in this topic and many times in other topics and somehow this marginalizes our points. Maybe not everyone feels the urge, has the time, ect to come post here about what they think is or isn't a problem. To assume just because they didn't come and post their thoughts doesn't mean everyone was happy with the shoddy shipping/packaging job. You make really wild assumptions about your customer base. Yes yes we all know it's your business, your game, you have been doing this for umpteen years, blah, blah, blah. I think what the people have been saying makes a ton of sense between the quality of the case/misinformation in marketing. In one post you talk about how the sales of British was through the roof and the next you are claiming poverty and acting life if you printed a manual you would loose your company. I just sounds contradictory. I just can't see how the money I spent on Marines was different than what I spent on the British and I got less for the money with British? Whatever, I will still buy the product, but I am entitled to say my peace and hopefully put a thought in BF's brain, so next time they make a decision, they might make one based on the small fringe group of elitist DVD case/cover art crazies, who actually enjoy a case and a manual. I am starting to see the futility of posting my thoughts on this forum because there are so many people who have nothing nice to say and BF honestly has a company line that seems to be fitting into all the arguments lately. Woe is me, we can't afford this or that. That is fine too. But forums are for discussion and when the discussion breaks down or one can expect what the response is before it is given seems silly to continue. I still think you guys rock though on 90% of any issue I have ever had. But we have to agree to disagree on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 The CD option was obviously meant for people struggling with a slow modem speed. I just looked and dont see this mentioned at all about slow Modem speeds when buying the game. I think the guy may have a valid point to make here without having the 'sizzle' taken out of him. Yet another person who seems to have encountered the famous BF forum 'so what' attitude, 'if you dont like it you can 'eff off'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I just looked and dont see this mentioned at all about slow Modem speeds when buying the game. Nothing is mentioned about printed manuals or DVD boxes either. Yet another person who seems to have encountered the famous BF forum 'so what' attitude, 'if you dont like it you can 'eff off'. I am honestly speechless how anyone reading these forums or even just this thread could think something like that, but since it seems that nothing that I write in response is read, I am locking up this thread. If you are unhappy with your hardgoods, such as if it is damaged, please submit a support ticket at www.battlefront.com/helpdesk and it will be taken care of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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