Formations we might see in the initial Normandy release

[Sgt Joch]

It might be of interest to post this again, pulled it out of Panzertruppen, vol.2:

division---------------PzIII----PzIV----PzV----Stugs---------

2nd Panzer-----------------------96------79-----------------

9th Panzer-----------------------78------40-------5----------

11th Panzer-------------26-------89---------------8----------

21st Panzer---------------------112--------------------------

116th Panzer------------13-------86---------------6----------

Panzer Lehr-----------------------98------88-----------------

1st SS Panzer--------------------45-------54-----45--------

2nd SS Panzer--------------------54------78------42--------

12th SS Panzer-------------------98------66----------------

17th SS Panzer-Grenadier--------------------------42------

List of tanks available to Panzer divisions in the West, june 10, 1944. Does not include independent units, like Tiger battalions. It also does not necessarily matchup to their TO&E when they went into combat, since some were still rebuilding.

It does show that Pz IV and Vs were the main type with the Pz IV still the most prevalent type.

According to the "official" TO&E, each 44 Panzer division was supposed to be equipped with a Panzer Regiment composed of a Panther Battalion with 88 Panthers and a Panzer Battalion with 88 PzIVs.

[ASL Veteran]

I think another consideration with what you put into each title and module would have to be how the modules fit together. If you have the title then any module you buy will be able to interact with the forces in the title. Forces in the modules won't necessarily interact with each other. So that makes putting the Standard German formations into the title very important. No matter what module the German paratroopers are put into, as long as you have the title you will be able to have German paras fighting US troops. If German Paras didn't fight against the British forces then they wouldn't even be necessary to put into the commonwealth module. German Paras could wait for module two and whatever comes with that module.

[Battlefront.com]

GvB,

Haha, I had that game... Frankly the only memories I have of it were playing for hours and yet still feeling like I hadnt done a thing... Probably due to the fact that it took a good hour or so to load a single battle...!!! Had a fair sized manual though if I remember correctly - probably on par with CMx1 Beyond Overlord's.

I forgot about that manual!!! Microprose made a very big deal about it at the time, IIRC, as if a thick manual could make up for the fact that the game wasn't all that good.

JonS,

We are leaving the 3rd Module "open" for miscellaneous stuff that doesn't really fit into any one specific niche. Adding LW Field Divisions might wind up there. At least I want them in. They shouldn't take too much work to get into the game since, for the most part, they were organized like WH units.

ASL Veteran,

I think another consideration with what you put into each title and module would have to be how the modules fit together. If you have the title then any module you buy will be able to interact with the forces in the title. Forces in the modules won't necessarily interact with each other. So that makes putting the Standard German formations into the title very important. No matter what module the German paratroopers are put into, as long as you have the title you will be able to have German paras fighting US troops. If German Paras didn't fight against the British forces then they wouldn't even be necessary to put into the commonwealth module. German Paras could wait for module two and whatever comes with that module.

Yes, a very good point to make and one I completely forgot to mention. This is, indeed, a big reason behind our overall "all or nothing" approach to a particular force type. Production reasons aside, it complicates the game player's experience if a particular force is broken up over several Modules. "I just made a battle which has FJ "infantry" backed up by a platoon of FJ Panzerjägers and another platoon of FJ Pioneers. Make sure you have all 3 modules necessary for this or you can't play it!" Yeah, that would be pretty bad I think!

What it comes down to is that for a particular force type it really does have to be "all or nothing" for both production and playability reasons. And the base game must have the basic elements, pretty much in full, right from the start.

Steve

[Gromit]

JonS,

We are leaving the 3rd Module "open" for miscellaneous stuff that doesn't really fit into any one specific niche. Adding LW Field Divisions might wind up there. At least I want them in. They shouldn't take too much work to get into the game since, for the most part, they were organized like WH units.

ASL Veteran,

Yes, a very good point to make and one I completely forgot to mention. This is, indeed, a big reason behind our overall "all or nothing" approach to a particular force type. Production reasons aside, it complicates the game player's experience if a particular force is broken up over several Modules. "I just made a battle which has FJ "infantry" backed up by a platoon of FJ Panzerjägers and another platoon of FJ Pioneers. Make sure you have all 3 modules necessary for this or you can't play it!" Yeah, that would be pretty bad I think!

What it comes down to is that for a particular force type it really does have to be "all or nothing" for both production and playability reasons. And the base game must have the basic elements, pretty much in full, right from the start.

Steve

Hmmm, so Steve, are you looking at all the Luftwaffe ground units (not just the FJ) as a whole then wrt the module they appear in? It would seem to make sense that way- at least with a cursory glance.

[akd]

Hmmm, so Steve, are you looking at all the Luftwaffe ground units (not just the FJ) as a whole then wrt the module they appear in? It would seem to make sense that way- at least with a cursory glance.

Pretty sure he means LW field divisions separate from FJ units and in a later module. They are really separate forces.

[Michael Emrys]

According to the "official" TO&E, each 44 Panzer division was supposed to be equipped with a Panzer Regiment composed of a Panther Battalion with 88 Panthers and a Panzer Battalion with 88 PzIVs.

That was the ideal, 4 companies of 22 tanks each. I think in practice it only came to 3 companies of 17 each with 3 to 5 tanks in the battalion HQ for a total of 54 to 56 tanks. And even that TO&E wasn't always met.

Michael

[Götz von Berlichingen]

GvB,

I forgot about that manual!!! Microprose made a very big deal about it at the time, IIRC, as if a thick manual could make up for the fact that the game wasn't all that good.

Steve

Made an ok beer coaster though!

Its kind of funny that the games I was dreaming of back then are what you guys are now producing... The years have flown by. But by the same token time seems to stand still whilst we eagerly await the new Normandy game.........Perhaps a bone even! :-)

[Sequoia]

I'm thinking at a low unit level how much more realistic Bazooka teams and Panzerfausts will be handled. Bazooka teams will split off from a squad as anti tank teams do now in CMSF and Panzerfausts will be carried by individual squad members which (presumably) could also split off into an anti tank team. I don't think Panzerschreks were assigned directly to a squad were they?

[TheVulture]

I'm thinking at a low unit level how much more realistic Bazooka teams and Panzerfausts will be handled. Bazooka teams will split off from a squad as anti tank teams do now in CMSF and Panzerfausts will be carried by individual squad members which (presumably) could also split off into an anti tank team. I don't think Panzerschreks were assigned directly to a squad were they?

There was some talk (you can probably find it in the Normandy bones thread that Winecape made) about having command posts and ammo dumps in game. Which are essentially abstract, stationary vehicles containing communications equipment, ammo, panzershreks etc. Obvious uses for the defender, and presumably quite usable for the attacker too: just set up a 'dump' position where acquirable weapons and ammo are placed near the departure line, and bring them up when needed.

[Michael Emrys]

Ammo resupply for an attacker might represent logistical support outside the time frame for a CM battle. In WW II it usually took at least hours.

Michael

[Dietrich]

I'm thinking at a low unit level how much more realistic Bazooka teams and Panzerfausts will be handled. Bazooka teams will split off from a squad as anti tank teams do now in CMSF and Panzerfausts will be carried by individual squad members which (presumably) could also split off into an anti tank team. I don't think Panzerschreks were assigned directly to a squad were they?

Might perhaps the soldier models be enhanced to show which soldier in a team/squad has a Panzerfaust slung on his back?

This could even be with CMSF/CMSF2. I don't think it would require any new animation(s) either; it would be just to give on-map at-a-glance indication of who has the AT4s and M72s and such.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Is that known in advance or is it determined when the unit goes to fire one of those weapons? I was under the impression that whoever wanted to use one of those weapons would ask the guy carrying one to give it to him if he wasn't already carrying it (at least in CMSF).

[Battlefront.com]

Sequoia

I'm thinking at a low unit level how much more realistic Bazooka teams and Panzerfausts will be handled. Bazooka teams will split off from a squad as anti tank teams do now in CMSF and Panzerfausts will be carried by individual squad members which (presumably) could also split off into an anti tank team.

Yes. Bazookas are like Javelins are for the US Army in CM:SF. They are available to Rifle Squads or, for that matter, any foot unit and not specialized teams like...

I don't think Panzerschreks were assigned directly to a squad were they?

Panzerschrecks were assigned to dedicated teams, much like the way Javelins are used by CM:SF's USMC and British Forces.

Steve

[Aacooper]

With the CMx2 system, you could simulate having a jeep roll into town with a load of bazooka rockets to resupply. That happened during the battle of Butzdorf/Tettingen, and helped the US defenders. I think resupply during a CM battle was pretty rare, but it can be done with CMx2.

[Sequoia]

With the CMx2 system, you could simulate having a jeep roll into town with a load of bazooka rockets to resupply. That happened during the battle of Butzdorf/Tettingen, and helped the US defenders. I think resupply during a CM battle was pretty rare, but it can be done with CMx2.

It could be possible if Battlefront allows custom loadouts of vehicles. The bazooka team would split off like a US Army javelin team and resupply. This is more realistic than CMX1 where bazookas were seperate teams from the get go, giving an unhistorical advantage to the US player who already had big squads compared to the Germans.

[Sequoia]

Reviving this thread, as it touches on my question somewhat. The CMSF campaigns were, of course, entirely fictional. This allowed the campaign designers to do what ever they wanted to design the most interesting campaign they could. Will the WWII game's campaigns try to be historical -which would, of course, stray from the historical results after the first battle, or will free reign be given again to the campaign designers to create a campaign that MAY have occured in the historical timeframe?

[Clavicula_Nox]

Chad,

Yes, but only the 17th SS. The US also had contact with 6th FJ. These battles will be possible with the introduction of the Commonwealth Module.

We decide that instead of dribbling out a bit of some formations in one and not the other we'd concentrate on getting them more-or-less complete in one go. This makes sense from both a gaming and from a production standpoint.

Steve

I'm assuming you're excluding Op. Cobra? 1st, 2nd, 12th, and who else was present?

[bodkin]

From a visual view point on the intial release did the Heer have much variety in their uniform or will all German units in the game be wearing the basic M43 gear in Feldgrau?

It would be nice if there was a little bit of variety, but only if it's historically accurate.

[Battlefront.com]

Clavicula_Nox,

I'm assuming you're excluding Op. Cobra? 1st, 2nd, 12th, and who else was present?

For the initial release? Obviously the parts of Operation Cobra that involved Waffen SS troops can not be covered, true. But it's also true that the British portion can't be covered either. I'm a bit rusty on the details of Cobra, but I thought the US forces only encountered 2nd SS and the Commonwealth and Poles got the pleasure of dealing with 1st and 12th SS.

Steve

[Piecekeeper]

How about fallschirmsjager troops?

......sorry...used the search

[JonS]

US 'got' 17 and 2 SS

UK/CW 'got' 1, 9, 10, and 12 SS.

Elements of 1 SS were sent west for LUTTICH. God knows what the US faced on the south face of the pocket - probably bits of every division in Normandy?

US faced SS again - 9 and 10 SS - in September.

From earlier in the thread: 91 Air Landing Div was a totally Army formation, *not* GAF.

[Clavicula_Nox]

Clavicula_Nox,

For the initial release? Obviously the parts of Operation Cobra that involved Waffen SS troops can not be covered, true. But it's also true that the British portion can't be covered either. I'm a bit rusty on the details of Cobra, but I thought the US forces only encountered 2nd SS and the Commonwealth and Poles got the pleasure of dealing with 1st and 12th SS.

Steve

I have a map somewhere that shows the disposition and general movement trends.

JonS' post clarifies better.

[Lee]

I have no problem with having SS units and such be in separate modules, in fact, I'm fully expecting to need at least 3 modules just for Normandy. Then we'll need the After Normandy game and another 3 or 4 modules for that. I don't mind paying Mercedes Benz prices as long as we get Mercedes Benz luxury (all the cool units, vehicles and weapons, and the accompanying special TO&E's, 3D models, textures, animations, sounds, etc. that go along with some of the German units). I think the overall cost is reasonable considering the depth and quality that we'll get. Bring on the modules!

[Clavicula_Nox]

I have no problem with having SS units and such be in separate modules, in fact, I'm fully expecting to need at least 3 modules just for Normandy. Then we'll need the After Normandy game and another 3 or 4 modules for that. I don't mind paying Mercedes Benz prices as long as we get Mercedes Benz luxury (all the cool units, vehicles and weapons, and the accompanying special TO&E's, 3D models, textures, animations, sounds, etc. that go along with some of the German units). I think the overall cost is reasonable considering the depth and quality that we'll get. Bring on the modules!

I agree. So long as Battlefront continues to make excellent games, I can see no problem continuing to support them. Hell, I bought the British module just to get the IBCT and I kinda see the Brits as a neat little bonus.

[BlackSwan]

Long ago there was a Normandy wargame, Across the Rhine, which was billed as being the "best wargame ever" as it was being developed. Then people started to find out that the game didn't have Waffen SS in it. They said they didn't include it for political sensitivity reasons as well as the Waffen SS not being necessary for the simulation of US combat from Normandy until the collapse of the Reich. Boy didn't that get the grogs a grumbling

As it turned out the game was over ambitious for the hardware of the day, not to mention their development budget, and IIRC the resulting product just didn't have a good reception. Not glitzy enough for the casual crowd, not good enough for the serious wargamer.

While I don't see why any one particular major force type has to be in the initial release of a CM game, they do have to be in the game at some point if we want to be taken seriously as a simulation of a given theater. Since we do want to be taken seriously, obviously the major forces will all (eventually) find their way into a CM game.

Steve

I may have missed it, but will we have a German campaign eventually in the Western Front? Please say, yes.