DaveDash Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I had a look around/search and didnt see this mentioned. Im noticing my Challenger 2 TC's unbuttoning under fire to use their machine guns.This is leading to a lot of dead TCs. Anyone else noticed this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 CR2 TCs don't have a machine gun. The guy on the left is the loader. Is this when self-targetting or when you have given them a target light order? Or is it the version with the RWS? The loader has to pop up every so often to reload the thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Johnston Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Not quite the same thing, but I was testing some CR2s against T72s at long range, and I watched as one of the Challenger crew stuck his head out the top - and the tank was hit by three shells in the space of about five seconds. The crewman was completely unharmed, despite being shrouded in fire - so they must know it's safe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flanker15 Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 On one of my floating trips through a tank I noticed that the CR 2 model in CM:SF doesn't have a gunner's seat. That must be uncomfortable for my pixeltroops. Anyway, I've not lost an unbuttoned crew member from a CR 2 since they don't have much exposure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveDash Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 CR2 TCs don't have a machine gun. The guy on the left is the loader. Is this when self-targetting or when you have given them a target light order? Or is it the version with the RWS? The loader has to pop up every so often to reload the thing. Ah.. might be the version with the RWS actually, and the loader is popping up to load it under fire and dying. He seems to pop up and button while being fired upon, and keeps doing it while trying and reload the RWS. Noticed it on Mission three of the Brits campaign, where my tanks are bullet magnets for suicidal BDRMs. =P 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 That is strange. The Abrams have a routine where the crew won't expose themselves to reload their weapons unless ordered by the player to open up, precisely to prevent them from getting killed whilst servicing a secondary weapons station. I'm surprised to learn the Challanger 2's are acting differently from Abrams. I'm assuming this is an oversight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I think that it's something to do with the RWS algorithm. The gun needs reloading so the crewman opens up automatically to do it. The alternative being that the vehicle has no gun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Yup. We had tons of debates about this behavior prior to the initial release. The original behavior was for the player to OPEN UP to reload the RWS. This made logical sense from our standpoint because it was allowing the player complete control over when it was worth the risk to reload. But we kept getting bug report after bug report of Strykers not engaging when they should, having damaged weapons when they didn't, etc. No matter how many times it was explained to them that it was because they didn't reload the weapon, the reports of "problems" kept coming. Then, at some point, we had a discussion about the pros of user control vs. the cons. We decided, as a group, that imperfect TacAI control over reloading was vastly superior to 100% Human reliant reloading. Over time Charles has tweaked and improved the decision making process of when it is "good" to reload and when it is "bad". This same logic should apply to all vehicles with RWS. Non RWS weapons which need reloading aren't a problem because the gunner is already exposed and therefore reloading doesn't change the equation. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Steve, you sure you not got that backasswards? IIRC they were initially under TacAI control then were placed under human control - although possibly with a TacAI override. Am I wrong? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 First time I heard about having to open up to reload a stryker, and Im pretty sure I read the manual. If there would have been a 'RELOAD' command in which the gunner 'opens up' to reload, I guess it would have been more clear Never noticed guns not reloading though, strangely enough. Saw some CR2 reload the thing in combat although I think there were no casualties in those events. EDIT: I'm sure I have seen Stryker gunners open up to reload their weapons. Never got frustrated about it though so casualties must have been scarce. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Johnston Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 You could have a three-way toggle, perhaps, instead of a two-way toggle: "Closed" "Open if you think you need to" and "Always Open" would give the best of both worlds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Uhm, it's always been that Strykers and such, for whom the RWS is the primary weapons station, auto reloaded. But Abrams were excepted from that behaviour because they had their 120mm and co-ax to provide firepower. Thus they didn't auto reload to prevent prolific deaths of TCs. I deem the later behaviour to be entirely desirable for the Challenger 2 too. Surely it's an oversight, not WAD? Discussed previously here: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=76390 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Other Means, Steve, you sure you not got that backasswards? IIRC they were initially under TacAI control then were placed under human control - although possibly with a TacAI override. Am I wrong? Yup The player responsibility for reloading was long before your time. I think we ditched that approach back in 2006, or at the very least early 2007. It didn't get anywhere near going into the game because it was seen as far worse than having the TacAI do it. You know... player doesn't notice unit needs to reload, badguys run into view without being engaged, badguys kill vehicle. Not something people were too happy about! Elmar, Uhm, it's always been that Strykers and such, for whom the RWS is the primary weapons station, auto reloaded. Correct. Always that way since the game was released (and for a while before that too). But Abrams were excepted from that behaviour because they had their 120mm and co-ax to provide firepower. Thus they didn't auto reload to prevent prolific deaths of TCs. Correct. That came about sometime after release IIRC. Only TARGET LIGHT kicks in the automatic reload behavior IIRC. I deem the later behaviour to be entirely desirable for the Challenger 2 too. Surely it's an oversight, not WAD? Dunno! I'll see that it gets looked into. It would be weird that the Challenger 2 would have different behavior than the Abrams. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Correct. That came about sometime after release IIRC. Only TARGET LIGHT kicks in the automatic reload behavior IIRC. Dunno! I'll see that it gets looked into. It would be weird that the Challenger 2 would have different behavior than the Abrams. Steve M1A1 and T-72/T-90 will not unbutton to reload RWS under any circumstances unless given an order to unbutton by player. Not with "target light" order, not when out of fire with no enemies in sight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 The difference may be that with Abrams and T90 the Commander has to do it, with Challenger 2 (enhanced) the CO can order someone else to do it for him! Little coward. I notice with M1126 Stryker, if there's infantry in the vehicle the commander will order the squad leader out of the hatch to do the reloading, if he's alone he'll do it himself. The privileges of command, one supposes 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Yup, looking into the inconsistencies. Funny it's not been raised before Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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