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Next release: Nato-Modul!


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@Damian90

I absolutely think that the new A6 with the longer canon-barrel, the new armour (thickness says not much: Quality of armour is decisive) and sensors can mess with every tank in the world, especially with the Abrams.

As long as the USA buys a licence for our 120mm canon, because they are not able to built a similar punch-weapon, as long is the german Panzerbau the line to mess! :P

Leopard-2A6.jpg

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MARS42, I have a question for you.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I've been doing research at a university here in Berlin, and I've come into contact with lots of university-age German students. I've gotten in several conversations with them about the semi-compulsory military service in Germany, and I was wondering: what do these semi-draftees do? Do they go into front-line combat units, or are they more rear-echelon and reservist types? Do they work in support units? All of the above? Basically, what I'm wondering is, with the front-line units that we'll see in CM:SF, will we be seeing professional soldiers, semi-draftees, or a mix?

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@ Field Marshal Blücher

Instead of serving as a conscript (they are not allowed to go Afghanistan, they must extend their duty to a minimum of 18 month to serve there), some young men and women, who have a higher school degree (as the mentioned later students) make the decision to serve 2 years as a Reserveoffiziersanwärter.

During their later civil life, they have the possibility to serve on some exercises and degrees to become a lieutenant and higher.

Some of these people decide to take part on foreign missions for 4 month, but they normaly serve in cimic troops or HQs. That these people serve in frontline units is not the normal case, but sometimes possible.

The troops in our syria scenario would have no conscripts and only few Reservists (= a kind of national guard)

Greets, MARS42

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@Damian90

I absolutely think that the new A6 with the longer canon-barrel, the new armour (thickness says not much: Quality of armour is decisive) and sensors can mess with every tank in the world, especially with the Abrams.

As long as the USA buys a licence for our 120mm canon, because they are not able to built a similar punch-weapon, as long is the german Panzerbau the line to mess! :P

Leopard-2A6.jpg

I won't get into a ****ing match with you, but suffice it to say, that we are happy to save the R & D money and borrow your basic gun, but your ammo doesn't compare to ours. ;)

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Minimum type of vehicles and weapons i would like to see in the german contingent:

Dingo, Fennek, Fuchs, Leopard 2 A6, Marder A3, G36, MG3, MG4

I agree with you, apart from the Dingo.

German Bundeswehr forces MUST have a Weisel!!

I don´t know how this module could be released without them.

From the previous releases it is clear that all the main vehicles and weapons that are found in the battlefield are in the modules.

-

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@ Vergeltungswaffe:

I´m don´t think to earnest about this topic! As long as the USA and Germany are not shooting at each other, its not really important, is´nt it?

And to be honest: Our Heer would be a real tough enemy, but i would state here, that it would be suicide to mess with your Navy and Airforce, our Marine and Luftwaffe is to little for something like that.

I have done some really good exercises with american comrades and it was always a pleasure and made fun! :)

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And Leopard 2A6HEL (one of three most heaviest armored Leopard 2 versions) turret, you can see that armor is not so thick like in M1's starting from M1IP variant.

leopard2hel07.jpg

leopard2hel08.jpg

leopard2hel10.jpg

leopard2hel20.jpg

And here comparision to known M1's armor lyout:

m1a1hc.th.png

Not the best I made and 100% accurate but gives the point how thick the armor is.

Red is strictly frontal multilayer laminat armor, blue side multilayer laminate armor (turret) and more simpler layered armor (hull), green RHA armor, black crew compartments, dark green fuel cells (they act like multilayered armor).

I absolutely think that the new A6 with the longer canon-barrel, the new armour (thickness says not much: Quality of armour is decisive) and sensors can mess with every tank in the world, especially with the Abrams.

And you have any deeper knowledge about tanks? :-p

No my dear friend, barrel lenght is not decisive, the ammo is the point and Yanks get the right choise, M829A3, long but also thick in diameter, slow and heavy round, yes it have more penetration values than quicker, also long but not so thick in diameter DM-63, but my english is too bad to say why this looks like this.

And armor? Haha my dear friend, 60% od Leopard 2 armor is... perforated steel blocks! rest are ceramics and rubber and maybe, I say maybe WHA, M1's armor is more complicated, in modern variants of M1's it is very advanced Burlington armor derivative, it have many layers of steel plates, ceramics, rubber, tytanium (on older versions like M1, M1IP and M1A1 alluminium), DU in graphite coating and in my guess also WHA.

This is why Germans need wedge addon armor, its main role however is to ignite HEAT warheads and achieve longer rout for Shaped charge jets, so penetration values are worser, second role is to support main armor in defeating KE penetrators (not by deflective but try to achieve "mushroom effect" on penetrator).

So as you see, Leopard 2 is not the best armored tank in the world. Besides this, LOS thickness is very important, why? Oh because thicker armor cavieties = more place for layers of special materials. :-)

Of course you can beelive otherwise, but you have only beeliving, I have some proofs and logical arguments. ;-)

s long as the USA buys a licence for our 120mm canon, because they are not able to built a similar punch-weapon, as long is the german Panzerbau the line to mess!

Oh, learn about researches about new main guns in late 70's, Yanks also have many good designs, but they choose licence because it was faster to field Rhinemetall design than waiting for domestic gun.

Besides this, M256/L44 is a licence derivative of original RH-M-120/L44 with many upgrades, M256 have more life time, it has simpler construction and other upgrades, also probably chamber can take more pressure.

So you see, learn more, and don't get yourself on stupid propaganda, because from facts that we know right now, Germans never produced better tanks than others, in WWII they got superiority in Heavy tanks because for long time there were no need for comparabale construction for Allied forces, but when IS-2 or M26 were fielded, German Heavy tanks have not such easy life any more. ;-)

And yeah, I also very happy that we are on the same side. :-)

But I say something that I saying always when people compare tanks, be impartial, learn more, read more etc. And then you see that some thing are not like in TV or official statements, as I show on Leo2 an M1 comparission. ;-)

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I'm curious about these two uniforms. I assume the one on the right is what a Heer soldier would wear in Germany. What is the one in on the left? What does the Heer in Afganistan wear? I assume that's what will be used in the game.

The guy on the left is not a German soldier.

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@ Damian90

I don´t know, if your arguments are right, but it sounds plausible for me.

I accept, that you have more knowledge about this topic than i have! :D

I was Gebirgsjäger (Mountain infantry) and later Raketenartillerist (Rocket Artillery), so i would have to ask one of my comrades of the Panzertruppe to extend a servere discussion about the armour with you! ;)

Greets, MARS42

P.S Where are the Danish and Canadian people here? No one interestet in the NATO-Modul?

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(...) but your ammo doesn't compare to ours.

That's just because German tanks don't need any other ammo than HE and AP to kill everaything that they might come across. And I think BFC will come up with a few other types of ammo currently in development/testing stages - if not, so be it. Can't have everything now, can we?

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I don´t know, if your arguments are right, but it sounds plausible for me.

I accept, that you have more knowledge about this topic than i have!

Hey, but nothing stands against learning heh? :-)

But to make thing clear, I don't say that Leo2 is a pile of crap, oh no, this is great, well armored tank, I only fights with myths that Leopard 2 is "the best, best armored" blah blah bull**** propaganda.

Besides it have some advantages over M1! Diesel engine that is more fuell efficent, and I really like German Diesels! :-)

It's too bad that TACOM and Pentagon doesen't make decision to replace AGT-1500C with GD-833 (licence production MB-833 EuroPowerPack for Israel) up to this day, but engine is produced and I hope thas some day it replace AGT-1500C.

Oh and I really like the glacis uparmor in some newer Leo2's, with M1's glacis armor layout such uparmoring probably can give real boost in balistic protection for glacis!

Oh and Leo2's inside design with loaders FCS ammo switch, so gunner can concentrate on firing.

I was Gebirgsjäger (Mountain infantry) and later Raketenartillerist (Rocket Artillerie), so i would have to ask one of my comrades of the Panzertruppe to extend a servere discussion about the armour with you!

Oh superb! :-)

I really will be happy if I can ask some of German tankers about some things in Leo2!

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... I only fights with myths that Leopard 2 is "the best, best armored" blah blah bull**** propaganda...

The actual claim is more that Leopard 2 has the leading position as the most capable main battle tank system of the world. But I think it is useless to try making a real decision, because we can not get on all the data necessary..

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Of course, I am looking forward to the NATO module for the Canadians, seeing as I am one. :D

I, in particular, want to see how the Coyote Recce vehicle gets implemented in the game.

Basically, the Coyote is a LAV 25 with an impressive sensor package which includes a MSTAR battlefield survelliance radar which can identify and track vehicles and troops out past 25+ kilometers, thermal imaging camera, day/night camera and a laser rangefinder/designator. The sensor package is usually mounted on a mast capable of telescoping to 10 metres (allowing the Coyote to be turret down behind hills and building and still use the sensors) but can also be remoted out to 200m on a tripod.

It will be interesting to see how the capabilities of the Coyote get implemented into the NATO module. I talked with a soldier who was a sensor operator on a Coyote and he said that, barring blocking terrain and dead ground, he can identify vehicles and personnel movements easily out beyond 10 miles while he was in Afghanistan.

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I suppose they can give Canadian units improved spotting abilities, but I doubt they'll do it. More likely they'll leave it up to the scenario designer to give a better intelligence briefing at the beginning of the battle. The Canadians, like the Dutch, are getting into the game mostly because all or almost all of their vehicles will already have been done for the US/British/German forces. With 3 new armies in the new module , I don't think they'll be doing a lot of specialty work for the Canadians and Dutch. Steve will have his hands full working on the TO&E of the 3 armies.

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The actual claim is more that Leopard 2 has the leading position as the most capable main battle tank system of the world.

Most capabale in what? Less armored than M1 and CR2, also Leclerc seems to be better armored (but Leo2 is still on the same level and it's still comparabale), I mean only SXXI (tranche-3) and maybe newer versions from S2 (tranche-2). Firepower is comparabale to other III/III+ gen. tanks.

Mobility comparabale if not same.

Only advantage I see is fuel economy of engine and Germans doesen't downgrade it's armor for export like Americans do (and Yanks do it in extreme manner for non close Allies like Australia or NATO <no NATO customer right now>).

Also US produced more M1's than Germany Leo2's.

M1's all versions + export ones will be approx ~10,000-11,000 (~8,800-9,000 for US), Leo2's approx ~2,000-3,000, maybe more.

So I don't see any overhelming advantage of Leo2 over other comparabale tanks.

But I think it is useless to try making a real decision, because we can not get on all the data necessary..

Yes, but we have support like "Burlington Files", known materials estimations, all armor estimations based on known materials estimations etc.

There are many smart heads like (heads down!) Paul Lakowsky. :-)

These guys have knowledge about tanks, armors etc. bigger than I can imaginate it!

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My 2 cents thinks the campaign will have one of the nations as the 'core' troops and the other nations in the Nato module will appear in the campaign as supporting troops.

That's a great idea. I hope they do it that way as I think there will only be one campaign in the initial release.

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That's just because German tanks don't need any other ammo than HE and AP to kill everaything that they might come across. And I think BFC will come up with a few other types of ammo currently in development/testing stages - if not, so be it. Can't have everything now, can we?

Not sure your AP is up to killing anything it might come across.

M829A3 fired from the L/44 > DM-63 fired from the L/55

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Not sure your AP is up to killing anything it might come across.

M829A3 fired from the L/44 > DM-63 fired from the L/55

Can't comment on that since I have no data at hand - just my own personal conjecture.

But surely having units in combat all the time somewhere gives weapon developers a different perspective and the need to for improvement/further development of components like projectiles. Now the Leopard isn't a tank that has seen extrensive combat service, but it has seen some in the recent years - and (please correct me) either all nations using Leopards (in actual combat or circumstances resembling) besides Germany use their own projectiles or they are satisfied enough with what they get else there'd be more/other prohjectile types to choose from. But, as I said, I do know as much about MBTs as the average guy out there knows about quantum physics - besides the basic facts about weight, calibre, general armor protection etc.

That's what happens when you devote most of your free time studying WW2... :D

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