infantry and cover

[angrysquirrel]

Hello,

I was curious why at least in my game infantry doesn't use cover properly. I get them behind rocks and instead of shooting over them for cover they lie down behind them and never pop up to shoot. I believe it's also the same when they are behind low walls.

Also, I'm wondering if there's any kind of strategy to this game. It seem like you just artillary everyone until you are out of ammo. Then mass all your troops onto one target. There doesn't seem to be anything by way of suppression tactics.

I also have a problem with the smoke as a way to use as concealment for an advance. I have my troops deploy concealment with smoke. They go into the smoke and advance on one guy with an mg 42 who is lying on the ground. My guys fire at the m42 guy on the ground and miss. The MG 42 guy kills all four of my guys (one of which is using a bren). Then I try the same tactic but use my bren to fire at the ground where the mg 42 guy is (i can't directly target him). Same result. Grr.

[Broadsword]

I haven't found this to be true. While TOW2 infantry certainly can do some stupid things at times, I've found they will use cover and shoot from behind it IF they have good morale and are not suppressed. Did you look at your troops' icons to see whether they might be panicked? Even before soldiers rout under fire, they will get shaky and cower and stop returning fire -- especially if they are green, no leader is near, etc. What side did you play? Americans? If so, remember too that US troops in Tunisia performed miserably in the Kasserine Pass battles. It was only later, after Patton took command and shook up, rested and refitted II Corps, that the Americans were ready to take the offensive and fight the Afrika Korps on more even terms (unfortunately, that part of the Tunisia campaign isn't represented yet in the game). One other thing: I have a hunch that infantry dies too quickly in TOW2 partly because of the way the terrain is done on the maps. Yes, there are stone walls and houses and even trenches, but the open areas of the maps seem to lack the subtle undulations and bits of dead ground that provide vital cover to infantry in real life. The flat areas are just too flat. Also, those movable "horseshoes" of dirt that represent foxholes really don't seem to offer much protection. I'm working on a custom map of El Guettar (March 23, 1943) that will have a lot more infantry cover, lots of little wadis and small hills, as well as some real dug-in foxholes and gun emplacements. Then it will be interesting to play on it and see if that makes any difference in the casualty rates.

[angrysquirrel]

Hi Broadsword,

Thank you for that insightful response. Hopefully, part of the programming code reflects what is happening with the american troops.

You know with kasserine pass where you start out and bring your troops to the first group on the left hand side (where the tanks go into rush that group). Well, you got that narrow pass with rocks and stuff that brings you out into an open area. Well on that narrow pass I had one german with an mg 42 holding back like 6 of my guys. I had then behind cover to fire back but they just stayed down. Maybe they were shaken but nobody ran away. Oh wait. One did and then he was shredded with mg 42 fire.

I just wish the guys would peak their heads over cover and fight back. I had 2 guys with bren lmg's on opposide sides of the trench and both were cowering.

G - german

---- ------

b1 - bren guy 1 bren guy 2

soldier with m1? solder 2 with m1 carbine

x - dead guy who tried to run for it.

It was terrible how this one guy was holding of 4-6 of my guys. Granted the german was prone but geesh, you'd think they'd grow a pair and fire back together.

[Broadsword]

I'm sure that was frustrating for you as a game experience, but actually, that sounds very realistic. In WWII, a single unsupressed MG42 with cover and a good field of fire could easily hold up the advance of 4-6 infantrymen, or even an entire platoon. Your GIs were actually being smart because they valued their lives, and weren't willing to follow your suicidal orders. Usually you can't suppress an MG42 with head-to-head rifle or Bren fire. Or, if you could, it would take a long time, you'd have to expose your own men to a lot of fire, and you'd probably lose a number of men in the attempt. Ideally, you would leave a few men in front of the MG to distract its attention, send some men around the MG under cover to flank it, then have the flanking men throw grenades to take it out.

In a narrow area (like a mountain pass), flanking options might be limited. In that case, a mortar would be a great weapon to have handy (but TOW2, inexplicably, left mortars out of the game). So you'd need to call in artillery or an air strike, if available.

[angrysquirrel]

Sir, you are a tactical master. I like reading your responses. Very visceral. Sounds like you are quite the history buff and/or also have some military training.

Problem with your idea though was that frikkin pass. It's narrow and I coudn't get other people on top of the big hills to either side of the pass to flank that guy prone with the mg42. Then I tried an end run on that trail that goes over the hill and brings you into that wide open area. Then you take a left after you leave the trail and that would put you behind the enemy in that narrow pass. So I took another squad of guys around to shoot from behind. Guess what? They had another solider with a 2nd mg 42 prone in the grass. (not to mention a pak...errr... 38 anti tank gun). He killed 6 of my guys. Two of my team members had brens also. Then I tried to use a smoke screen to advance on the enemy. Didn't work. All guys cut down. Then I tried to suppress the guy at his last known position (he was in the grass so he always had first shot on my squad...even if they were prone also). No luck. They were lawn mulch. So frustrating.

[Broadsword]

Hmmm. Sounds like a massacre. Smoke was another good idea, but I'm out of suggestions on that one. Anybody else have something to suggest?

In real life, your company would have tried its best to carry out the attacks, gotten clobbered, and eventually -- after several failed attempts and lots of casualties -- someone at higher headquarters might have realized this mission is futile and tried to find a different approach (a route to a different pass, more artillery support, etc). But in the game, you either have to win or keep playing it until you do.

Here's a thought -- In the map editor, you can edit which zones of a map are accessible to infantry, vehicles, etc. If you feel like tinkering, try saving a copy of your map, open it in the editor, and see what happens if you make one of those bigger hills accessible to your infantry. Then maybe you could play a custom version of the scenario and have a chance of winning it.

[Knokke]

Very good explanation, Broadsword!

I believe that many peoples having a problem with ToW2 AI are used to a less realistic behaviour of the infantry in other games. The AI in ToW2 in my opinion is pretty realistic, but peoples using tactics that worked in other games might feel a bit frustrated when the same tactics here are not working. I've myself felt the same frustration several times with soldiers cowering behind low walls or rocks instead of returning fire, even where they greatly outnumber the ennemy. The attack will end in failure most of the time, the attacker suffering a lot of casualties. The trick here is that your men are cowering because they are suppressed: nobody wants to return fire because they don't want to be killed. Once this happen, there are not many options left. A solution would be to have a vastly superior firepower to try to suppress the MG. But in the narrow mountains passes like the example above, this is difficult to achieve, because your squads have no room to outflank the ennemy, and it is impossible to call a tank or armored vehicle to the rescue. When attacking a position, I always try to have 2/3 of my infantry sneaking to a position where they can shoot at the ennemy while the other 1/3 are trying to close on the ennemy position, and even like this, it does not always goes smoothly, and I usually suffer a lot of casualties unless I can have artillery or tanks pounding at the ennemy. What is needed is a ratio of attackers/defenders at least 6 to one, or even more, and even if you win the fight, chances are that you'll have suffered a lot of casualties.

A well positionned MG (in a place where it is protected and can't be turned, and where armored vehicles can't go) is worth a lot more than it seems.

[angrysquirrel]

Hi Folks!

Thanks for the responses. I ran into a new problem today. Got past the kasserine pass mission and onto one where I needed to defend a village. During setup phase I put one of my Daimler scout vehicle in the front yard of one of the buildings. There was a wooden fence at one point of the yard and a small clay like fence (not sure what it was made of) surrounding other parts. I tried to move the Daimler out of that area when the fighting area started and it wouldn't run either the fence or the small wall over to get out. I tried shooting at the ground and for some reason the wooden fence or wall wouldn't break. Is there any way to get vehicles out of closed areas like that? Kind of defeats the purpose of using your environment for camouflage and cover if you can't move your vehicle once the element of surprise is over. Thanks!