T34/85 vs. 3 King Tigers

[Buq-Buq]

Yeah, well, there's a can of worms that I've opened.

And, Vark, I hate to say it, but if you can't figure out a way to get more than a few shots off at the King Tigers, you're doing something . . . well, you should be trying something different. And if you're taking shots at the front, that's the first thing to change. You've gotta think like Oddball; there's more than one way to skin three big cats.

Heinrich:

Yup, I have really liked this one for a long time. I still have my review that I did when it was back on the original Scenario Depot. (If Steve would oblige us, I'd post it again.) It is a very fun scenario . . . one of my more memorable. Very tense.

I get the feeling that Mad Russian didn't re-post it when The Scenario Depot II came out because he says that it is not historical, with regard to the map/terrain. But then again, if that were the reason, he never would have re-posted Cats and Crocs or A Tiger By The Tail either, so maybe I'm reading the situation wrong.

;^)

Anyway, whatever. Everybody try it out. See what you think.

Mark

[dieseltaylor]

Vark- the Archer may be more fun : ) Genuine 17pdr and designed for the ambush - it would be interesting to compare reverse speed of the Wolverine to forward in the Archer!!! Also the rate of fire in the Archer may be superior.

Reading this thread I had forgotten how stupid the AI is - but then I very rarely play it.

[Vark]

Buq-Buq, read my post carefully, I cannot simulate the engagement using CMBB, sure I can carve up the AI, who cannot, sure I can exploit its zombie like tenacity and basic pathfinding but I cannot ambush three Tigers in my T-34, whilst it is sitting in a cornfield. As for the comment about the target aspect I positioned the T-34 at right angles to the King Tigers, one of the first ahistorical things you learn about CMBB is the invulnerability of the beasts to frontal engagements. As for the realism, even you have said

"I get the feeling that Mad Russian didn't re-post it when The Scenario Depot II came out because he says that it is not historical, with regard to the map/terrain".

Yes, give me forests and houses to hide behind and I can engage in a tank-stalking thriller, and probably kill three King Tigers, but try to create a 'historical' and see the result. It's a good job I don't have a computer with smelly-vision otherwise it would have taken a week to rid the house of the stench of burnt rubber, diesel and flesh!!

[JasonC]

Vark - I sincerely doubt that 3 tanks ambling down a road failed to see a T-34 standing smack out in the middle of an open wheatfield 200 yards away from them.

But I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if a Polish wheatfield in August had a haystack or two standing in it, and a T-34 could easily hide in a large haystack...

http://www.mammalwatching.com/Palearctic/Images/Belarus/berezinsky%20haystack.jpg

[Vark]

Jason C, from the account on the Russian Battlefield website, about the engagement.

"At midnight on August 13th, a growing noise of tank engines was heard coming from the German side. Before dawn, the commander of the 53rd GTBn returned from the headquarters to his tank, which was employed as an observation post between the tanks of the 1st Tank Battalion, which were hidden between low sand dunes. In the front and on the right side of the Soviet positions, there was a valley with a road to Staszów. On the left hand side, there was a field with stacks of hay, where Ivushkin's tanks were camouflaged. Near the entry of the valley stood Lieutenant A. P. Oskin's "thirty-four" (T-34). A. Stetzenko was the driver, A. Merkhaidarov was the gunner, A. Grushin was the radio operator, and A. Khalychev was the loader. Colonel Arkhipov and Ivushkin hid the tank in the haystacks, and ordered Oskin to hold his fire until given a special order."

Later on when Oskin starts to engage the King Tigers

"I saw a part of the haystack over Oskin's tank move, and the gun barrel appeared. It fired, and then again and again: Oskin had commenced the battle. Through my binoculars, I could see black holes in the sides of the German tanks. At first I saw only smoke, but then I saw flames. The third tank turned to Oskin, but it was immobilized after it received a hit in its tracks, and then it was hit again for good."

The whole account is found here

http://www.battlefield.ru/content/view/167/88/lang,en/

Just to show how one account is always suspect, another claims Oskin's two other T-34's also fired, the chasing the King Tiger, from the original posters account, smacks a bit too much like like Soviet spin, heroic tankers chase cowardly Germans etc. It could also refer to a separate, but similar account which has been merged into one single narative.

So yes, standing in a cornfield would be spectacularly stupid, but alas CM has no haystacks, hiding the T-34 in scattered woods, my haystack simulation, brought instant destruction in CMBB but allowed an ambush in CMAK's more refined simulation. I believe in Normandy or Italy (can't remember if I read it in "Caen: Anvil of Victory" or "The Gothic Line") where the SOP was to spray haystacks with tracer and watch for ricochets! I'm not a computer person so this might be a naive question, but surely Battlefront could have simulated some sort of haystack improved cover tile.

DT, how could I have forgotten the Archer, the new test, results in at least three dead Tigers, often four.