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CMx2 WW2 Western Front question ... and a proposal


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Hi,

Just done reading WineCape's recap thread (thanks heaps for that!). A question came to mind. As the post-September WW2 west front will be another family, with (presumably) engine improvements, will it support June 44 - May 45 or only October 44-May 45? Meaning, can we play a campaign with a company that goes from the beaches to berlin?

Also, I have a proposal for the CM:Normandy real name: how about CMBB? CM: Beacheads to Bocage? ;)

Cheers

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Hi,

Meaning, can we play a campaign with a company that goes from the beaches to berlin?

Cheers

I can answer your question from information Steve has posted in the past. No, the two game titles will not link in any way unless ..... drumroll ...... BFC decides to make a 'module' that links the titles together (all titles?). However, as of the last report, Steve indicated that they weren't sure it would be 'worth it' to make such a module.

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I can answer your question from information Steve has posted in the past. No, the two game titles will not link in any way unless ..... drumroll ...... BFC decides to make a 'module' that links the titles together (all titles?). However, as of the last report, Steve indicated that they weren't sure it would be 'worth it' to make such a module.

My uninformed opinion... such a module would be their best selling module.

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Correct, the two Western Front Families will be completely independent of each other. The primary reason is that we need "breaks" inbetween the Families so we can have the freedom to change things like data structures, file formats, etc. to support new features without having to expend energy making the engine backwards compatible with earlier data.

In theory what we can do is upgrade the old content to work with the then current game engine. However, we don't think it's worth spending our time on. We're definitely not ruling it out completely, though I'd say at this point it looks unlikely.

Steve

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Well, FWIW (not much I know), I would buy a module (or a series of modules) for the second family that brought in the content allowing a campaign from June 44 until the end of the war, as US and CW. There are many famous units that went through the entire campaign, and even had the same core of personnel, the obvious example being Easy Company from Band of Brothers...

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Correct, the two Western Front Families will be completely independent of each other. The primary reason is that we need "breaks" inbetween the Families so we can have the freedom to change things like data structures, file formats, etc. to support new features without having to expend energy making the engine backwards compatible with earlier data.

In theory what we can do is upgrade the old content to work with the then current game engine. However, we don't think it's worth spending our time on. We're definitely not ruling it out completely, though I'd say at this point it looks unlikely.

Steve

Any chance of a once off, all-encompassing game covering the Normandy landings to the end of the war?

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We like Apocal because he is a very versatile poster. In one thread he can post very detailed, insightful stuff that makes us think hard, and in another thread he can post something that makes us laugh :)

Seriously though... the amphib landing stuff involves a lot of specialized programming that has absolutely no application anywhere else in any CM game we'll ever likely do. So it's the sort of thing which we have so far down on our ToDo List that we're unlikely to ever do it. For the time spent on that feature we could add several others that would be enjoyed by everybody playing any CM game. Unfortunately what to include often come down to decisions like this. Believe me we like this even less than you guys!

Steve

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If any of BFC's proposed "future titles" was Vietnam riverine operations or perhaps WWII Pacific theatre they might be more likely to focus early on coding for landing craft/boats. But BFC has never expressed much of an interest for such titles (that I can recall) and so has not expressed much interest on pushing the water coding too far.

Ah well, look on the bright side. No Normandy landing craft means getting the game at least a month earlier :D

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We like Apocal because he is a very versatile poster. In one thread he can post very detailed, insightful stuff that makes us think hard, and in another thread he can post something that makes us laugh :)

Seriously though... the amphib landing stuff involves a lot of specialized programming that has absolutely no application anywhere else in any CM game we'll ever likely do. So it's the sort of thing which we have so far down on our ToDo List that we're unlikely to ever do it. For the time spent on that feature we could add several others that would be enjoyed by everybody playing any CM game. Unfortunately what to include often come down to decisions like this. Believe me we like this even less than you guys!

Steve

Normandy

Anzio

Salerno

Sicily (plus all the battalion sized subsidiaries)

Dragoon

The Rhine, north and south of the Ardennes

Market Garden amphibous assault by the 82nd

What-if scenarios to cross the Rhine to reinforce 1st Airborne

Added to that, there is an almost completely untapped resource in the operations to clear the Schedlt so that Antwerp could be used as a port. The Canadians and Brits bore the brunt, attackin a myriad of islands and completly flooded terrain impassible to normal vehicles. A wealth of amphibious craft were used, including Buffalos mounted with all sorts of guns. German paras and others defending...a brutal and savage struggle as the Germans well understood the value of keeping Antwerp closed.

I reckon there is some very exciting gaming possible....hopefully you might change your minds one of these days :) One day....one day...

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But amphibious landings are a way of getting to a battle, not a way of fighting one.

Yup. All the battles on McIvan's list can be modelled and fought in CMAK (and likely in CM:N ... with allowances for missing kit, etc) as long as you set the edge of the map 50m to the right.

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Yup. All the battles on McIvan's list can be modelled and fought in CMAK (and likely in CM:N ... with allowances for missing kit, etc) as long as you set the edge of the map 50m to the right.

Well, not quite all...the Walcheren/Schedlt battles are an exception, with amphibious tractors crawling from high ground to high ground. I think (have thought, for a long time) that could be a fascinating campaign.

So too would a decent river crosssing...if not the Rhine (too big) then what about any of the lesser river crossings....

I'm sure you'd love to, Steve, and I am cognisant of the point about utility divided by programming resources, hence I 'm not exactly pushing hard.... for what that would even be worth.

But still. One day, one day... :)

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Well, not quite all...the Walcheren/Schedlt battles are an exception, with amphibious tractors crawling from high ground to high ground. I think (have thought, for a long time) that could be a fascinating campaign.

The Rhineland campaign, as well.

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And beyond...

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Well, not quite all...the Walcheren/Schedlt battles are an exception, with amphibious tractors crawling from high ground to high ground. I think (have thought, for a long time) that could be a fascinating campaign.

Sure, but that - crawling between islands of high ground left after the dyke was breached - is an operational campaign, not a tactical battle. CM can do the tactical bit. You need to find something else for the operqational bit.

So too would a decent river crosssing...if not the Rhine (too big) then what about any of the lesser river crossings....

River crossings were quite easy to do in CMAK. Furthermore, opposed river crossings weren't all that common - generally the heavy fighting occured several hundred metres, or several kilometers, on the far side of the river, once the defender had woken up and counter-concentrated his reserves.

On the one hand, an opposed river crossing is a particualr tactical problem that would be interesting to simulate and fight. On the other hand, opposed river crossings (of a sort that would require something not available in, say, CMAK) just didn't happen very often.

Jon

P.S. I am aware that opposed river crossings did occur (eg, 30th US Inf Div at Cassino), so let's all be clear that I am NOT saying they didn't occur.

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Stop being such a wet blanket, Snow :P I'm not saying they were common either. Btw I mean going from high ground to high ground within the context of the same scenario, because of all the flooded ground. Not going from island to island as separate scenarios (although that was often, maybe even usually, the case), albeit that would indeed make a fine campaign.

Kapelsche Veer (sp?) is another that would make a great scenario...the fighting is going on over djikes, causeways and flooded polder as the Germans defend the river ferry with the Maas at their backs rather than in front.

Look I know it isn't going to happen. Nice to contemplate however.

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Stop being such a wet blanket, Snow :P I'm not saying they were common either.

:) Just a bit of pre-emptive strawman burning.

Btw I mean going from high ground to high ground within the context of the same scenario, because of all the flooded ground. Not going from island to island as separate scenarios (although that was often, maybe even usually, the case), albeit that would indeed make a fine campaign.

When I wrote that, I was thinking about going from 'island' to 'island' around the rim of Walcheren, and then over to Middleburg in the, er, middle.

Kapelsche Veer (sp?) is another that would make a great scenario...the fighting is going on over djikes, causeways and flooded polder as the Germans defend the river ferry with the Maas at their backs rather than in front.

But ... that's all quite do-able in CMAK, no?

Look I know it isn't going to happen. Nice to contemplate however.

Indeed :) As I said, Opposed River Crossings are an interesting tactical problem that would be interesting to simulate. But the thing is, it's possible to do reasonably comprehensive ORCs in CMAK anyway (I'm thinking of a rather good river crossing scenario that I've played ... although of course I don't recall the name :rolleyes: It may even have been CMBO. IIRC it was in one of the NABLA tournies), and most of the really interesting fighting - rather than the simplistic straight-up-the-guts assaults to seize an initial lodgement - happened well away from the water's edge anyway.

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Most of the opposed river crossings I've ever read break down into one of two categories for a CM sized battle:

1. over to the other side quickly and with relatively few problems.

2. Repelled and no significant coherent force lands on the other side.

For #1 the crossing can be rather interesting, but tactically speaking it's rather short on tactics. You rush everything into the water, provide covering fire, and hope for the best. The real stuff happens after getting to the other side.

For #2 the crossing was opposed by more than a scattered/shattered defender and the attacker basically had to call it a day. I don't see much fun in that :D

So as I said, I'd really like to allow #1 to be a part of CM, but it's a lot of work for relatively little gain (when compared to other things we could do with our time). And to do it REALLY right, we need the sorts of hardware AKD posted pics of. Hardware that was, for the most part, dragged across Europe specifically for one river crossing which, as it turned out, was relatively easily done.

It's kinda like the request for being able to put up pontoon bridges. In real life those sorts of things were done when there was little direct resistance. And when there was direct resistance, there pretty much was no chance of the bridges being laid within the timeframe of a CM scenario. Still... would be cool to have if it could come for free!

Steve

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But ... that's all quite do-able in CMAK, no?

Well, not what I'm actually thinking of, which included lots of Buffalos with 20mm cannon and loaded with infantry splashing over streams and fields flooded with a foot or two of water. I suppose you could call all of that "shallow ford" or "deep ford", but we still wouldn't have the right OOB or the right amphibious capability to stop from bogging in the "fords".

The interesting bit comes in because there is not one "other side" across which you charge asap, but lots of "other sides" crossed with supporting fire from the bits you've already got, although there were also strips of solid ground that more conventional forces were butting along with the aid of large numbers of Wasps.

It made an excellent West Front scenario in the Campaign Series game system...always thought it would make a neat CM scen if the equipment was there.

That's only one instance, however, although there are probably more that I just don't know about or have forgotten due to advancing senility.

All by the by.

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Dykes are easy enough, and you could use mud, or soft ground, or sumfink, for the low places, and fords for the ditches around the edges of fields. It mightn't quite look right, but the tactically significant bit here seems to be that the infantry can move across it - slowly - while vehicles can't. Some of the vehs are missing, but it'd be easy enough to substitute M3 or M5 halftracks for the Buffalos - not quite the same, but near enough. *shrug*

At the moment, the biggest issue would seem to be that AFAIK there isn't any terrain in CMSF that is accessible to infantry but not vehs.

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