Sniping with BMP's

[Cuirassier]

Today I ran a few tests using the ATGM's on the BMP-1(4c) IFV. I am interested in seeing if the game models the ability for roof mounted ATGM's to peek over crests and snipe armor without exposing (or very minimally) the launching AFV. I set up a company of vet BMP-1's against a green company of T-72M's. The range was 2000m (I used normaldude's firing range map). When the BMP's were in partially hull down or hull down positions, they readily spotted the enemy tanks and were spotted by the enemy tanks. They readily lost the duel, which was unsurprising considering the T-72's advantage in weapons accuracy, ROF, armor muzzle velocity etc.

However, when I setup the company of BMP's to have the los line read 'reverse slope, no aim point,' I saw some interesting results. First, the BMP's took more time to spot enemy T-72's (40 sec to a minute). Once spotted however, the BMP's engaged and achieved around a 60% hit rate, with all missiles hitting achieving kills. Turret hits regularly brewed up the T-72's while hull hits caused minor damage.

Most interesting was the fact that the T-72's failed to locate the BMP's about 90% of the time. When they did spot the BMP's, their reply shots went high.

I will continue to test this (with other roof mounted atgm vehicles as well) and see if I can reproduce these results consistently over various ranges. So far it looks like that roof mounted ATGM's, when used carefully with supporting infantry giving spotting information, are great at dueling other AFV's with practically no threat to themselves.

Has anyone else played around with this? Seems to me that BMP's may be much more dangerous AT vehicles than I originally thought.

[Apocal]

Wait, so you're saying that the "reverse slope, no aim point" line is basically the real hull-down? That explains some ****.

[Cuirassier]

For BMP-1's at least, it would seem that it means the vehicle is in defilade except for the ATGM and the gunner's head. Haven't tested how it functions with tanks or other IFV's. CMSF's los system is more complicated than I originally thought.

[Combatintman]

Bear in mind you would be wasting your time in real life by siting the BMP with just the launcher poking over your relief feature. The gunner's sight is on the turret and therefore he won't shoot unless he can see the target which means that the turret needs to be exposed to get LOS.

[theFightingSeabee]

Cuirasser, thanks for the testing. I've wondered many times about that, although never had the patience to actually test it out. I feel like I've had mixed results with all types of units when barely trying to crest a hill. I do remember occasions, using the atgm stryker, I used a lot of care to get it to barely pop over a hill, just to have it nailed by return tank fire. I'd like to know if there's been any upgrading to the LOS system for 1.2.

[Meach]

Yeah this is an odd one. I find trying to get turret down almost impossible. No line of sight untill you expose some of the hull too.

I even tried opening up so the head of the tank or vehicle commander was over the ridge line. Never seemed to work.

[Sivodsi]

For BMP-1's at least, it would seem that it means the vehicle is in defilade except for the ATGM and the gunner's head. Haven't tested how it functions with tanks or other IFV's. CMSF's los system is more complicated than I originally thought.

I've had a brief go at it, and it is so irregular that it is frustrating.

I was using the firing range and as far as I could work out, Bradleys don't have this capability. Only had time to try the LAV AT and they seem to have it to a limited extent.

One interesting thing that I learnt, when moving the LAV AT into full LOS, it takes 10 seconds for them to get a fix on the enemy and then fire.

Unfortunately to the waiting tanks it takes them only 5 seconds until the 'see' the LAV AT.

If I have time I'll do tests with more missile armed AFVs.

To be honest I've always found it frustrating to work out response and fire time when moving AFVs into LOS. Especially when I go to great lengths to check using the target line if they are in view or not. Many times I have checked continuously and found them NOT to be in LOS, but then am shocked when my opponent picks them. I think this area of vulnerability is the 'reverse slope - no aim point' zone.

[Dietrich]

I would dig it if "turret down" positioning were feasible. This would allow for making the most of one's MBTs and turret-ed IFVs -- they could reconnoiter at least some of the terrain ahead without exposing more than the topmost part of the turret.