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Request to Battlefront, shut this thread down please, we already have somebody who has now used the N word to describe the situation in Gaza. This is a travesty of the present situation and shows how quickly the thread can deteriorate, I come to BF for informed comment, not sub DU/Huffington comments.

Please Battlefront drop a MOAB on this thread.

p.s. Cpl Steiner, I thought your original point was valid, I went up a water tower in Northern Israel, approx 5/6 storeys on a small hill, looking out I realised I could see more than a quarter of Northern Israel! The whole area is alot smaller than most people realise.

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One thing I really appreciate about the CMSF 1.11 patch is that now squads can advance through urban terrain and have a moderate to good chance (depending on their quality) of survival without having to suppress (blast the crap out of) every building in their path. This was a tactic some people avocated in the past and understandibly so due to the poor performance of squads being suppressed. This bothered me though because it simply wasn't realistic in regard to modern political sensitivities.

Here's a quote explaining the extent that Israel tried to avoid civilian casulties in Gaza. "The Israelis also make use of the phone system to avoid civilian casualties. For example, the bombing campaign after the initial attack was directed mostly at the thousands of rockets Hamas had stockpiled. Most of these were stored in civilian housing. This was a technique pioneered by Hezbollah in Lebanon. There, some homes would have a basement excavated, to provide more space for rockets. Israeli intelligence is still identifying these storage locations. When one is found, the Israelis will phone the home just before the attack and tell the civilians they have a few minutes to get out before the place blows up. In at least one case, the civilians were defiant, and went to the roof, believing that the Israelis would not bomb with women and children in plain sight. In response, the Israeli fighter came in low and fired some 20mm cannon shells right next to the building. The panicked civilians fled the building and the place blew up shortly thereafter." http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htintel/articles/20090103.aspx. Despite measures such as this Israel was still condemed for unnesessary civilian casulties.

So it's good that now we can play this game much more realistically. I hope this made sense.. It's bourbon night

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One thing I don't understand is that HAMAS is getting supplies through tunnels between the Gaza Strip and Egypt, but Egypt is saying very little to condemn Israel because they apparently can't stand HAMAS and wouldn't mind seeing Israel destroy them.

If Egypt is giving tacit support to Israel, why can't it just close the tunnels itself?

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What AFV do you think we can use in CMSF to "simulate" ( as possible as it can be simulated) the Israeli Merkava to make a Gaza scenario/campaign?For the Hamas side it seems simple enough as we have a lot of stuff to make their fighters.The Israelis can be given a mix of Bradleys and air assets (from US arsenal) and syrian infantry (from syrian oob).But what tank is the closest to Merkava??? any idea anybody???

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Of course we know of such "measures" only based on what the Israelis tell us. Propaganda is propaganda and you have to take it with a doze of salt.

I think you are right. To some degree I imagine Israel does try to avoid unnecessary casualties but I also have a sneaking suspicion from comments by their military and politicians that they regard the civilian population as somewhat of a legitimate target for electing HAMAS in the first place. There seems to be an element of retribution involved - you chose HAMAS as your government so now you have to pay.

It's certainly a horrible situation and not black and white like some posters seem to think. There is good and bad on both sides. However, considering the disparity in casualties (about 10 or so Israelis to several hundred Palestinians) you have to wonder how much Israel really gives a damn about Palestinian civilians that happen to "get in the way".

What AFV do you think we can use in CMSF to "simulate" ( as possible as it can be simulated) the Israeli Merkava to make a Gaza scenario/campaign?For the Hamas side it seems simple enough as we have a lot of stuff to make their fighters.The Israelis can be given a mix of Bradleys and air assets (from US arsenal) and syrian infantry (from syrian oob).But what tank is the closest to Merkava??? any idea anybody???

In the current highly charged political climate, I don't think a Gaza campaign would be too wise!

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Most modern AFV's are perfect equivalents for Merkava. Why? Well, most features of Merkava are classified. Same applies to other modern AFV's. ;)

But seriously, neither M1A2 TUSK or whatever nor T-90 are very good equivalents for Merkava IV in that features don't quite match. But Merkava is well protected, so the closest equivalent would be the tank that is the best protected in the game. Right now that would be the Abrams. Besides, I would expect the spearhead troops to have a very good data integration, so it's best to use forces from the same organization for quick data sharing.

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Wow, you really make it sound fun!

In reality, though, I don't think it would be worthwhile. Unless the Israelis suddenly start running into some real thick opposition, the Gaza biz is just too dull for wargaming. Even the previous Lebanon campaign would be, and there was even some real resistance. Of course Hamas would like to see IDF to engage in some (IMHO totally sweet) Stalingrad style fighting, but I think that IDF is going to do something else: a professional by-the-book MOUT using what ever advantages they have over the adversary, to achieve what ever their secret goals may be. Sure, I don't know what is going to happen, but thus far it's so seen before...

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No, this game simulates war. Tons of wars and battles have been recreated in a game environment, whether on boards, computers, historical reenactments, etc. This war is no different from any other. Terrible as ever. If there are any close battles, you can bet it will be simulated in some way. I, in no way, want to disrespect or dishonor anyone, I'm more interested in the tactics and gameplay. It's like a complex chess game. Putting it in a realworld or believable situation makes it that much more tense for me. I wouldn't be so into the game if the soldiers were green monsters tossing flognords and casting spells at each other. I would rather simulate something a little closer to reality. But hey, that's just me.

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I would rather play a grand strategy game with the middle east than play something so insignificant as a tactical simulator of the ground "war" in gaza. Its like playing chess as you said but one side has a complete set and the other starts with a bishop and a pawn. Even with the point system in CMSF the missing pieces of political costs are not highlighted enough to give you a satisfying sense of the big picture.

And enough of this asymmetry! History has taught us that the most succesful games on the planet are perfectly symmetrical. Bring on the WW2 game! We are so desperate for some nice and historical wargaming that even Bulldozers and blind unguided rockets seem appealing to us :D

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No, this game simulates war. Tons of wars and battles have been recreated in a game environment, whether on boards, computers, historical reenactments, etc. This war is no different from any other. Terrible as ever. If there are any close battles, you can bet it will be simulated in some way. I, in no way, want to disrespect or dishonor anyone, I'm more interested in the tactics and gameplay. It's like a complex chess game. Putting it in a realworld or believable situation makes it that much more tense for me. I wouldn't be so into the game if the soldiers were green monsters tossing flognords and casting spells at each other. I would rather simulate something a little closer to reality. But hey, that's just me.

I like CM:SF because it gives me an appreciation of what the various pieces of hardware kicking around in the news actually do in practice, so as to have some idea of the relative strengths of the people that are fighting. CM:SF seems to be one of very few games that are genuine simulations in that respect.

I don't know whether CM:SF scenarios should include more penalty for causing incidental damage to the neighbourhood. It does seem like you're "getting away with it" a bit if you simply solve problems by pouring heavy fire into buildings left right and centre or call down heavy artillery over a large area of town, and there's no comeback if you decide "I don't like the look of that big mosque / hotel / whatever over there" and call in an airstrike before going anywhere near it... I guess it's a hard thing to model in a scenario, though. You'd need some kind of "lose points if this building is destroyed unless an enemy unit has been visible there to one of your units" flag for each building.

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IMHO: Its a very interesting asymmetric conflict for a simulation: a user made scenario(mod), with population density high, and victory condition with minimal Blue (Israeli) casualties, and buildings to be preserved, lots of artillery/air support,... playing as Hamas could be also a challenge and an unusual tactical perspective for a 'i used to play mostly blue-side' wargamer. I have to admit I like tactical simulation of ongoing conflicts -> more immersion

Merkava Mk 4

hmm.. anything with a 120 smoothbore canon, no reactive armor, and a good optic will do.

there are no tank battles, its used in an infantry support role only, so its more important to get the fitting protection-level against the Hamas AT arsenal right, so maybe M1A2. Does a IDF Namer can take more beating then a Bradley?

Maybe one dedicated map wizards around here is even able to produce 1:1 representation of the north eastern Gaza strip with one or two very large map from google-maps-images.

Now that would be a real treat!

...even if we have to send in the Marines or US Army (and soon the Brits:)) for tactical simulation purpose

The area will remain hot for years to come, so it would not be a waste to have some 1:1 Gaza-maps

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IMHO: Its a very interesting asymmetric conflict for a simulation: a user made scenario(mod), with population density high, and victory condition with minimal Blue (Israeli) casualties, and buildings to be preserved, lots of artillery/air support,... playing as Hamas could be also a challenge and an unusual tactical perspective for a 'i used to play mostly blue-side' wargamer.

I don't think so. The situation is just too lop sided, by factors outside tactical considerations, there are very few CM type engagements and all useful documentation about them will be classified so nothing to make a campaign on. The best bet for Hamas is to get lucky with IED's, but they don't know what the Israelis are up to and IDF is not going to just casually wander into some deathtrap - most likely they're going to keep their distance to densely built locations and keep pounding known targets. Even in the 'best' case, what could Hamas pull off? They beat the Fatah militias in the Strip, yes, but that doesn't make them tough, considering how poorly Fatah militias have always fared against IDF. Of course the only reliable source on the conflict, or any conflict, is the War Nerd.

Oh, and if you ask my opinion on what Israel's goals are: they have some secret agreement with Fatah to help Fatah back into power in the Strip, and in return Fatah will stop the missile strikes. Before that, IDF will try to destroy as much of the weapons in Gaza Strip as it can locate, just to be sure.

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Sorry, can we nip this "warfare has to be symetrical otherwise it's so unfair" meme right away. The whole point about war is that it is meant to be won and the way to increase your chances of winning is to make it as 'unfair' as possible. The only people who would love this conflict to be symetrical (whatever that means) would be the IDF, if Hamas had conventional forces they would be slaughtered. The Iraqis learnt in the first Gulf War that conventionally confronting top-tier troops is a receipe for humiliation and disaster, hence the irregular strategy used in 2003.

If you were to simulate this conflict it would be challenging for both sides, period. As the IDF you have to move with caution, precision and patience all the while being constrained by Western liberal notions of war. As Hamas, you have to try to inflict casualties against a well trained, well equiped army, but the rules that constrain your opponents are some of your most powerful weapons.

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Sorry, can we nip this "warfare has to be symetrical otherwise it's so unfair" meme right away.

Well that's easily done, because you're making it up. But to say that the Gaza Strip land operation would make for a fun campaign... well, do we have something to play on? So far nothing to make a campaign on. And I'm willing to bet that IDF is doing their best to avoid anything that you could turn into a CMSF battle. If Hamas gunmen or anything tries to approach them, they will get shot at range. Still fun and worth the effort?

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Making what up? I always relish playing the underdog in games, gives me a good excuse for when I loose! As for Hamas, recreate the underground tunnels environment, pitch a well trained sniper unit with 50 calibre rifles against mech infantry etc, etc.

I do agree thought that computer games are not the best medium to play these engagements, as the rules cannot be adapted to suit the environment. Look at the prototype "Sharp End" rules, for miniatures to see how this conflict could be equally challenging, for both sides. I do hope the next generation of computer games will allow the basic code to remain but allow far greater input from the players, Steel Panthers allowed a modicum of adjustment, but was a very basic game.

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@Ali-Baba

Immersion, its an ongoing conflict

btw: cant wait to play 'Brits vs Taliban' on maps based on 1:1 modeled existing 'historic' places too

I wish there were an auto-map-generator tool were anybody could mark a 4x4 km place on google earth and after some heavy calculation (and maybe a small fee to get high-res data) it spit out a raw-CMSF map

@Sergei

nobody is forced at gunpoint to download a certain map, mod, or a scenario from the repository ;-)

how would you like these:

- rescue missions where 'IDF' special forces have to free long time (or fresh) captured soldiers. They have to go in, and they cant flat the whole area either

Could be Red on Red also if they disguise as Pallies too (Hague Convention doesn't apply, Hamas is not a legit fighting force, and Hamas gave a damn about it anyway)

- or based on your political scenario:

while a 'media-war enforced' cease fire between IDF and Hamas is just about to be kicked in, Mossad secretly rearms a 'Fatah militia battalion' that they had let infiltrate into Gaza before unarmed in chunks as 'aid workers' and those start to get even with the remaining Hamas and fight to throw them out (may include a Mossad agent to call in some limited support as FO)

Hamas goal: the remaining high figures have to reach a string of exit-points on several connecting 1:1-Gaza maps (last exit point is where they might be evacuated to Syria or Iran finally = end of campaign)

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To be honest I think threads like that should be locked upon opening. Not only is in bad taste to talk about our hobby while things are fresh and ugly but the asymmetrical aspect of this conflict is too extreme to have any connection to CMSF. This is more asymmetrical than the Nazis invading the Warsaw ghetto.

So why bother playing a game that mimics real world situations at all? Our "hobby" will always have a parallel in the real world. War is not going away anytime soon. I think some people need to lighten up. These people talking about closing down threads because they can't draw a simple conclusion to CMSF need to just not read the thread if it so upsetting. I would expect more from a community of war gamers and people who are, were, or going to be soldiers. I totally see the parallels to this game. It is a game about a conflict in the middle-east. There just so happens to be a conflict going on in the middle-east. Conclusion drawn. Are we going to all stop playing this game once a real conflict in Syria breaks out to avoid hurt feelings on the forum?

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So why bother playing a game that mimics real world situations at all? Our "hobby" will always have a parallel in the real world. War is not going away anytime soon. I think some people need to lighten up. These people talking about closing down threads because they can't draw a simple conclusion to CMSF need to just not read the thread if it so upsetting. I would expect more from a community of war gamers and people who are, were, or going to be soldiers. I totally see the parallels to this game. It is a game about a conflict in the middle-east. There just so happens to be a conflict going on in the middle-east. Conclusion drawn. Are we going to all stop playing this game once a real conflict in Syria breaks out to avoid hurt feelings on the forum?

Maybe I play my hobby differently.

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Some call it immersion but I prefer the game to be a bit disconnected from bloody ongoing conflicts. Its like having fun the day of a funeral. But the most disturbing is the nature of this particular conflict. I've been a soldier but soldiers also know that deliberately killing civilians (as UN and Red Cross have already accused the IDF) is not what army teaches you. Extracting some meaningless tactical situations from this lop sided slaughter, this particular moment, lies almost on the edge of irony.

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