What effect did the stabilized MG have on rifles?

[dieseltaylor]

SO - I know full well where the production figures/stock come from but the 400m figure is not necessarily from the same source. Panzerkeil is using the production figures for a purpose other than explaining usage.

Is it feasible that the 400M [395,489,504] is actually the ammo issued for the campaign rather than what was fired? It does seem ludicrously exact to be anything else - down to the last 4 bullets!.

The effort of counting all the bullets after the campaign together with the shifting of troops to the West during the campaign does make it hard to believe that the 395M 's exactitude as expended. That is expended as in fired at targets, rather than removed from the arsenals which may be classed by them as consumption required for the campaign.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Adam,

JasonC knows that HMG42 is useless against infantry at 300+ meters. he most likely opens fire at under 200 meters. which one must do anyway, because otherwise the MGs will just run out of ammo.

[Blackhorse]

Is it feasible that the 400M [395,489,504] is actually the ammo issued for the campaign rather than what was fired? It does seem ludicrously exact to be anything else - down to the last 4 bullets!.

The effort of counting all the bullets after the campaign together with the shifting of troops to the West during the campaign does make it hard to believe that the 395M 's exactitude as expended. That is expended as in fired at targets, rather than removed from the arsenals which may be classed by them as consumption required for the campaign.

I believe you are spot on with this analysis.

[JasonC]

URD, Adam,

Russian 1943 rifle platoon of HQx3 with all +1 bonuses, 4x squadx9, regulars, in a treeline behind a fence 300 yards from another fence on the far side of a field. Germans HQx4 with all +1 bonuses, 2 HMG42x6 in scattered tree foxholes with one small flag on far side of the field. Russians attack straight ahead across open using advance. Germans are on 300 meter covered arcs with no human interference in their target selection, HQ on 80m arc just commanding.

Russians are aided by a jam after the first full minute of fire by the rightmost MG. They pin at distances from 125 to 150 meters, without getting a spot, and with 8 men hit to that point.

A competent commander in CMBB would then break it off as impossible, fire ascendency will not be gained. But pressing instead to illustrate what will happen, they are able to ram a half squad and the HQ within 100 meters and get spots, and therefore to return fire. But as nearly all the men are pinned by then nearly all of the time, with one squad typically in panic at any point, they cannot get fire ascendency. The worst the Germans ever suffer is a single HMG at "alerted". The Russians continue anyway, to the limit of the men's willingness to do so.

End result - 5 Russians routed off a side map edge, 6 broken Russians routed clear back to their own tree line, all 28 remaining Russians casualties, 6 KIA and 22 WIA. No German losses. Pressed home with inadequate force over open ground, 70% casualties and come-apart failure.

Is German ammunition expenditure too high in this case? Yes. Are +1 morale regulars more robust under MG fire than typical real world units? Certainly, greens are far more realistic in CM. Can you get closer with fewer losses than you could in real life? Yes. Can you assault 2 HMGs covering an open field with one infantry platoon just by using the magic "advance" command? No, not remotely. Is the end result of attempting to do so - failure with 70% losses and the rest broken half-squads running in terror - accurate overall, anyway? Yes.

[Vark]

I'm officially confused now! Ran two tests, after reading claim and counter claim. Both tests had a platoon of regular 1943 infantry advance 300m, in flat, clear terrain against two regular MMG's, one platoon was German, one Russian. The HQ's both had plus ones for all categories and the MG's had a plus ones for their HQ and were in foxholes, in brush terrain.

The advance command was initiated when under fire (previously the platoons had short arcs and were moving to contact). In both cases the advance was not coordinated but given to all the platoon.

Germans v's Russians

After taking fire from the Maxims the Germans spotted the first gun at 328m and two turns later the second gun was spotted at 318m. With both threats located the German platoon advanced, took 11 casualties, destroyed one maxim and captured two crew from the second.

Russians v's Germans

The Russians failed to spot the MG-42's until they were 122m and 115m respectively. The Russians then continue to assault and take out both MG's, but lose 18 men wounded and 6 killed.

Why are the Maxims so much easier to spot? Why did the sniper training video (link posted in my first post) suggest a DP was a threat to a whole platoon, yet a platoon can, in an uncoordinated advance knock out two MMG's. The re-enactors I've talked to, who gave a seminar to Sandhurst graduates, about the Red Army, actually got to live fire some of these weapons. The most telling comment came from the range instructor, who told them that a maximum of a one second burst, with the maxim, at 500m targets was advised otherwise the targets would be too badly damaged. They also said that regular body mass hits could be achieved at 200m with the PPSH-41, though they prefered the 43 model.

So, how come Jason's MG teams only had ruffled hair and mine were riddled and how come the maxim can be spotted at twice the range of an MG-42? Were the German platoon leader's Zeiss 6X30 glasses that good?

[Vark]

Eeeejet!!! My first test was in steppe terrain, too much mucking around with Kursk scenarios, I instinctively selected those nice tan tiles, doooh!

The new results are more in line with Jasons test, though there are some differences. This time the MG-42's are spotted at 258 and 236 metres suffer three casualties are down to 6 and 4 ammo and have caused 22 casualties (9 KIA's).

The maxims suffer even worse loses, with both guns surrendering with two crew left and the Germans suffering 7 casualties (2 KIA's). Was the maxim such a poor weapon? Also why do the MG teams open up at approx 300 metres, surely the crew can spot the advancing infantry, remember those 6X30 binoculars! I thought the whole idea about SFMG's/MMG's was that they could outrange a squads weapons. Is the close range a combination of the stealth 1 HQ and the move to contact order?

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[dieseltaylor]

JasonC.

Look at whole battles or campaigns and you will see the real average figures, which are far lower than single firefight cases. (A readily accessible example - Poles took 200,000 KIA and WIA, at least 1/2 and probably more like 3/4 HE caused; Germans expended just under 400 million rounds of 7.92mm ball doing it. Elapsed time one month).

Jason do you actually have confidence in Panzerkeils figures as being ammo fired or do agree it is probably ammo issued for the campaign start?

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[undead reindeer cavalry]

i thought it would be obvious, but when i write "300+ meters", i do not mean ranges UNDER 300 meters, i mean ranges upwards from 300 meters.

so start with the platoon at something like 500 meters and open up with the HMG42s.

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[undead reindeer cavalry]

Also why do the MG teams open up at approx 300 metres, surely the crew can spot the advancing infantry, remember those 6X30 binoculars!

because MG fire is useless in CM at ranges upwards from 300 meters, and the game engine knows it. firing would be just waste of ammo.

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[undead reindeer cavalry]

yeah, platoons have firepower superiority from around 350 meters, depending on actual unit types and such. if the platoon has an ID, they can just shoot out a HMG on a foxhole. at around 400 meters the platoon is likely to run out of ammo. HMG remains an annoyance to around 600 meters (causing some losses but does not stop a platoon) after which the fire becomes totally meaningless (something like 1 casualty for all ammo).

the advance & hide combo is a bit too effective. it takes an optimal situation, which is not likely met in actual battles, for HMG to succesfully stall an infantry advance.

i do not think HMGs should be more lethal, but i think they should pin down infantry for longer periods and have lower ammo consumption.

[Vark]

So how do MG's operate in CM2, does the system replicate a beaten zone? CM1's depiction of MG's (a casualty of the approximation approach to simulating firepower) turns them into just a weapon that has a higher fowerpower factor than others, at certain ranges.

URC, if pin results were easier to obtain then turns per game would have to be increased, imagine playing in a 30 turn game where your units pin for half the game!

[dieseltaylor]

Adam

Does anyone know *exactly* what the firing behavior was like at Colenso and Spion Kop? Specifically, was the defender pinned most of the time? Were the attackers actually out of LOS or plainly visible? Was the problem hitting them or poking one's head out? Stuff like that.

I did think you might look that kind of detail up! : )

An interesting scenario is Eritrean Camarone [?] to see how much of a game can be spent being pinned. It is actually quite interesting for being unusual early war CMAK.

The UK HMG seems to have enough fire to pretty much last a 30 turn game though I suspect the German HMG's may well not. Incidentally I suppose all these tests are done with the miraculous 100% platoons that never turn up in real war?

[JasonC]

Does anyone know *exactly* what the firing behavior was like at Colenso and Spion Kop?

There are first hand accounts. Churchill was personally there, and has vivid accounts, though at Spion Kop he spent most of his time dealing with wounded streaming down from the top, or among confused officers below, debating who to send up and when.

Where the defenders usually pinned, I'd say no. At Spion sometimes, because the ranges over the reverse slope were short enough - but they suffered a fair portion of their own losses in a counterattack or two. There was artillery being used on both sides, and the shallow trenches the Brits dug on the summit were inadequate protection in so small an area, against any guns at all. Brit artillery was present but not spectacularly effective at pinned the Boers, at any time in Black Week. Read Churchill's accounts of the Boer war, and read Pakenham's book on the war, for more details.

[dieseltaylor]

http://angloboerwarmuseum.com/Boer28_battles1.html

good modern photos but best used with maps below

http://www.britishbattles.com/great-boer-war/colenso.htm

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/battles_colenso.html

with battlefield maps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Colenso

photo

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Boer/BoerWarColensoHartsHill.html

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Boer/BoerWarColensoBoerTrench.html

photo

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0270230/

film : )

There is quite possibly some information for Spion Kop also : )

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[jtcm]

Hi Adam-- I've no desire to make you eat humble pie or wear a hair shirt (I'm sure JasonC's modesty would forbid that), but could you spell out what follows from what you just posted ? I.e. are you now of the view that tactical test cases show that CM modelling is OK, i.e. there is no "super open" terrain in realistic and reasonnably RL combat conditions ?

Best wishes for 2009

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[JasonC]

Well, the ammo consumption for long ranged fire by MGs and infantry is too high, it is true. And that can be exploitable against an uncareful opponent in some situations. But usually it doesn't pay to try to do so, you expose yourself to too much grief trying, it takes too long, etc.

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[JoMac]

Adam,

This has been an interesting thread for sure with many good points by all including yourself.

I would be intrested in continuing this discussion via email, in particular to your suggestion of tile changes.

Thanx

Joe