WW2- or CM Normandy - reality or revision?

[snake_eye]

Just how many documented cases are there? I can't find more than that one with Google. I do however find sites claiming tank ramming as a myth.

here's to you Sergei, that is oly one among many others. However ramming was I repeat a desperate option and it had been done more frequently that you thought. 2 tanks on that encounter out of 3 ! that one on the Russian front but the same applies on the West Front

Another biography

Gds. Lt. Ivan Efimovich Butenko

Tank commander of the 25th Guards Tank Brigade/2nd Guards Tank Corps

On July 6 in Smorodino area of the Yakovlevo district destroyed 3 tanks from them 2 by ramming. Was killed on Oct. 21'43. Became a Hero of the Soviet Union on Jan.10'44

http://samsv.narod.ru/Klb/GSS/Butenko.html

[Dietrich]

One thing we have to remember is that many more tigers were reported to be engaged by Allied tank crews than actually existed in the Normandy theatre (Tiger Phobia).

The British tank commander Andrew Wilson reportedly said, "All you saw in your imagination was the muzzle of an eighty-eight behind each leaf."

Perhaps Allied tankers figured they were being fired on by Tigers when in fact it was just 88mm flak cannon. It's certainly possible that there were more 88s than Tigers in Normandy.

Just how many documented cases are there? I can't find more than that one with Google. I do however find sites claiming tank ramming as a myth.

The one discrete instance of tank ramming I have read of (in multiple non-online sources) is when German tanker Ernst Barkmann rammed a Sherman (partly by accident) during the Battle of the Bulge while on one of his seemingly charateristic daredevil solo excursions.

I find it much harder to send my pixeltruppen to their doom when they are represented 1:1. When they were abstracted I was much more indifferent to their plight.

It pains me to see even my abstracted pixeltruppen get wounded or killed. When my 1:1-simulated troops fall (in CMSF or even ToW), I curse my tactical ineptitude. In fact, when playing CMSF I find myself compelled to ensure that all my wounded get "buddy aid" (as it's called in the field manual) and that even the killed get carried off the battlefield, in accord with the principle "leave no one behind".

[snake_eye]

The one discrete instance of tank ramming I have read of (in multiple non-online sources) is when German tanker Ernst Barkmann rammed a Sherman (partly by accident) during the Battle of the Bulge ".

Actually he was the one rammed by a Sherman, if you like his story look at the following threads

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Barkmann

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen5.htm -almost the same with pictures

htpp://www.panzerace.net/english/pz_ per_bar.asp - the most detailed account of his combat near Le Lorey (close to St Lo) Normandy and near Manhay in the Ardennes. Very interesting, a lot to read.

[rune]

Very frequently? Not at all. Barkmann had a single incident in what, 5 years of fighting? To top it off, the incident caused very little damage to his tank? As for the Russian, none other then David Glantz said this:

"Most of the stories about ramming comes from the fighting during the first few days of the war, when many of the Soviet tanks (particularly KVs and T-34s) had yet to be bore-sighted or lacked ammunition. For example, the 2nd Tank Division issued such orders to its new tanks when it engaged the 6th Panzer Division just east of naseinai, Lithuania--and was winning the fight until it ran out of fuel--after whuch the tanks became imobile pillboxes. It this instance the new Soviet tanks were a match for the lighter German or Czeck tanks even when they could only ram.

You can probably find similar instances even later in the war, but only after the tanks ran out of ammunition or could not fire for some other reason.

All the best,

David"

It did not happen frequently.

Rune

[Sergei]

If tank ramming had been frequent (something of an everyday affair) and effective, I'm sure tank designers would have figured it out by now and MBT's would have battering rams at their front. That'd be a sight.

[snake_eye]

Tank ramming wasn't done everyday for sure, it was a desesperate option when tanks were at very close range and for some reason could not sight and shoot the opponent. Too close, gun damaged,no ammo or just surprise to see the other tank just in front and to late to evade and or shoot. The only thing to do is to ram it full gas and hope to get away from it, with the track or on foot. it is better than reverse and get shot right away.Not so much chance to survive without any injuries from such a shot.

You don't have to think of options like bumpers for your tank or battering rams, because I said "frequently" to someone saying it happened only once ! It happened more frequently that he thought that it did happen. That is not easy to say ! You can always have a MADD MAX feature fixed to your tank, that I don't mind. just kidding you !

that is the End of it for me

[Battlefront.com]

The better option would be to NOT ram and instead withdraw from the battlefield. That would be the norm, not suicidal runs at the enemy.

We're not going to bother with tank ramming. We didn't for CMx1 and we don't think the game suffered for a lack of it.

Steve

[Sequoia]

Let me know when you do that ancient naval warfare sim though. Ramming Speed!

[CogNative]

Rams Away:D

+ Bridges

+ Air to ground, ground to air. The CMx1 shadow system in CMx2 has got to be an improvement. CAS, when executed well in the game now, is a spectacular amusement. I would still buy a good 3D aircraft, flight paths, etc. module.

+ Modules for a business model.

+ CMx2 is 1:1 now and forever. "I feel a distinct pang when one of my guys goes down." Then IMO the 1:1 is more realistic.

[Dietrich]

Actually he was the one rammed by a Sherman

That's why I said "partly by accident". If I wanted to belabour the point, I could have explained that during the course of Barkmann's aforementioned solo excursion, he was heading along a road near some American tanks and a jeep drove toward him with the passenger waving his arms in warning (evidently mistaking the Panther for a Sherman); Barkmann charged the jeep, and when the jeep caromed off the Panther's front the German tank crashed into a Sherman parked at the side of the road. But like I said, I didn't want to belabour the point. =P

Very frequently? Not at all.

*sigh* I was not among those saying it happened even infrequently, let alone often enough to be worth simulating in CM:Normandy (or in any WW2 combat simulator, for that matter).

Barkmann had a single incident in what, 5 years of fighting? To top it off, the incident caused very little damage to his tank?

*shrug* That's the only incident he had that I have ever read about. According to the accounts of that incident, at the collision the Panther's engine stalled for a few minutes. Apparently neither the Panther nor the Sherman it hit suffered any actual damage.

[Bannon DC]

I'm really looking forward to the CM-2 WW2 Version. SF looks good and ww2 should do to, I really like the 1-1 representation.

However, I hope that CM Normandy will follow reality. If as has been hinted its going to be US Vs Germans from DDay to Breakout, then I would hope youd keep to history.

The US faced a lot of infantry and slugged their way to various objectives, Cherbourg comes to mind. SS Divisions and Tigers werent seen until the last weeks of Normandy for the US and even then, were very rare.

I just hope that CM Normandy will reflect this reality and not succumb to revisionism just to have a Tiger and some SS in June 44. What we should be seeing is German Infantry, or Paras and more Stugs and PzIV than anything else.

please dont revise history for the sake of a game....

There's nothing wrong with "keeping to history"... however, I would hope that the units would not be restricted from a scenario designing perspective solely based on historical availability. Like most, I prefer historical scenarios, but on some days I wouldn't mind shooting it out with ten Shermans vs. a lone Tiger no matter the game date.

I'm looking forward to see what Battlefront gives us in terms of fortifications... and units that can counter them. Tank-dozers and flail tanks come to mind as something new we need to see.

And speaking of historical... we can't have Falaise Gap without HORSES. Yes, we must have horse teams. If you can have a truck or a jeep, why not horse carts?

[Sequoia]

Horses were said to be too much a pain in the butt to model. I'd be happy with a Horsch in addition to the Kubelwagen.

[ASL Veteran]

I'm curious about the commonwealth module and the whole game module concept in general. So, when the commonwealth module comes out for the Normandy game (up through Sept?) that will mostly include TO&E stuff essentially (at least that's what I'm getting the impression is in these modules). So when the second western front game comes out will that have a different commonwealth module for it or will the commonwealth module for the first game be applicable to the second game? (presuming that the base game is some core TO&E stuff with mostly different map type stuff in it)

[snake_eye]

The better option would be to NOT ram and instead withdraw from the battlefield. That would be the norm, not suicidal runs at the enemy.

We're not going to bother with tank ramming. We didn't for CMx1 and we don't think the game suffered for a lack of it.

Steve

That is your choice and I think like you, that Normandy won't suffer from being deprived of being able to ram a tank (even if other games -tables or informatic are doing it).

However, I think that not being able to crush a truck and or an AT gun should have been considerate.

Following is a quote of the story of a very famous ramming that happened in '44 place de la Concorde ) and shown in the movie "The Longest Day" of ZANUCK. The French tank commander was played by Yves MONTAND.

It described what, I always told you about ramming and why ,that was, on some occasion the only thing to avoid suicide while reversing and running away.

Paris August 25, 1944 1300 hours,

Under the command of Major de la Horie, the 1st section of tanks (lieutenant Bénard) launches the attack of the Meurice hotel supported in its progression by two platoons of the RMT (French Inf unit). The Meurice hotel is HQ of General von Choltitz, German garrison commander of "Gross Paris". The progression starts along the street of Rivoli; the infantrymen dash from pillar to pillar and door to door; lieutenant Bénard smashes a barricade and leads to the place de la Concorde.

There, the leading Sherman tank, "Douaumont", (every French armoured vehicle has got a traditional name, Douaumont being a battle in the Verdun sector in 1916, under the command of Sgt Bizien, 21) stumbles on a Panther engaged in a duel with the gun with a tank located on top of the Champs-Élysées avenue. It fires its loaded shell, an HE which has no effect on the Panther; then the gunner, out of AP rounds, reloads with a smoke round which is even more ineffective.

However the Panther starts to turn its terrible 75 PAK towards the Douaumont, but fortunately its turret, cranked by hand because the first HE round disabled its electric drive, cannot turn quickly enough: the driver of "Douaumont", Campillo, rams the Panther; the 75 PAK of the German tank, because of its length, is stopped in his rotation by the turret of the "Douaumont" and cannot fire at the French M4.

The German crew, benefitting from the artificial cloud caused by the smoke round, leaves his Panzer and dashes into the Tuileries gardens. Alas! hardly has Sgt Bizien jumped on the Panther that he his killed by a sniper bullet to the head. He collapses, dead.

Strangely, ten months later, on the motorway to Munich, the crew of the M4 "Douaumont" which had broken down, ask a German POW tank crew member to lend them a hand to board the Sherman on to a tank transporter; during the conversation, they learn from him that he was precisely the driver of the German Panther the French crew had rammed on Place de la Concorde the previous August.

QUOTE

P.S : If you can improve the running of the MARINES Campaign, that I will gladly accept and you know what I mean, since every other board is posting about it. Do it and I shall pardon you for omitting ramming, cows, bicycles and whatever you want in Normandy.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

IIRC the ramming of AT guns was in CMx1 to some extend. Charging at a gun with a tank would lead to the abandonment of the gun.

[Flanker15]

Yep running over AT guns and other squashable things with a tank was apparently common.

Also that plane modual idea was pretty good, would BFC consider making 3d planes for WW2 if we payed for it?